India rejects Pakistan peace plan; calls for revival of terrorism talks
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WASHINGTON: India on Thursday rejected a four-point peace plan for Kashmir proposed by Pakistan but said talks among officials of both countries on terrorism that collapsed in August should be revived.
Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif announced his proposal at the annual United Nations General Assembly on Wednesday, saying the two nuclear-armed countries should formalise a ceasefire in Kashmir and take steps to demilitarise the divided region.
Know more: PM urges India to pledge not to use force under any circumstances
India issued a swift rebuttal, accusing Pakistan of claiming to be the primary victim of terrorism while “in truth, it is actually a victim of its own policy of breeding and sponsoring terrorists.”
On Thursday, Indian Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj told the General Assembly that India remained open to dialogue, “but talks and terror cannot go together.”
“We don't need four points, we need just one: Give up terrorism and let us sit down and talk,” she said.
Swaraj said the talks between national security advisers on all issues related to terrorism should be held, as well as an early meeting of senior military officials to address the situation on the border.
“If the response is serious and credible, India is prepared to address all outstanding issues through a bilateral dialogue,” she said.
Planned talks between national security advisers from India and Pakistan were canceled in August hours before they were due to start, dashing hopes the two might tackle the violence that many fear could one day spark a nuclear showdown.
In the talks, India had wanted only to discuss terrorism-related issues. Pakistan sought a wider agenda, including the status of Kashmir.
India and Pakistan have fought three wars since becoming independent countries in 1947, two of them over the Himalayan region of Kashmir, which both claim in full but rule in part.
Sharif, elected in 2013, promised to improve relations with India. But since then domestic troubles have forced him to cede more control over foreign and security policy to Pakistan's military. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi has taken a hard line with Pakistan, insisting he is unwilling to discuss other issues unless Pakistan admits its role in terror attacks in India.
India's Ministry of External Affairs made it clear that Sharif's proposal was a non-starter.
“To de-militarize Kashmir is not the answer,” ministry spokesman Vikas Swarup said in a tweet. “To de-terrorize Pakistan is.”
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On DawnNews
Oct 02, 2015 02:04am
we cant breed terrorists of any form either good or bad for stability of pakistan. Lets kick them out of country first.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:05am
Let us see how serious India is and let us go with 1 point formula. Finally we want peace and K- resolution.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:05am
India will soon be chasing us for peace talks.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:07am
Yes, stop terrorism in Sri Lanka, China, Bangladesh, Pakistan, maldives, Nepal and Pakistan.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:08am
Terrorism is biggest menace and it needs to be stopped at top priority.
Once terrorism is stopped, we can think and talk about development and cooperation.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:10am
To the point and very well said. It is up to Pakistan to reciprocate her demand and solve all issues. If Pakistan is really serious about Kashmir it is a golden period, Modi Government can take Bajpee's unfinished task to permanent settlement.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:10am
No Kashmir Talk, No Talk. We are tired of talk, talk, talk. Lets resolve the freaking issue and everything will be fine. Let the Kashmiris decide what do they want. Who is India or Pakistan to decide their future.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:11am
“We don't need four points, we need just one: Give up terrorism and let us sit down and talk,” she said. Sushma Swaraj ,you are quite right, let us discuss one point provided you are not allergic to " K" word. Discuss"K" all other issues will go away.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:14am
Usually diplomatic talk means a talk from which different meanings can be derived and it is delivered with sugar coating. Sushamaji sherani hai and tigress doesn't know political language. Direct blunt clear unambiguous statement.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:14am
Well Said .. This is what people of India want to communicate..
" Talks and terror cannot go together.”
"We don't need four points, we need just one: Give up terrorism and let us sit down and talk ".
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Oct 02, 2015 02:15am
Let us be frank, we are not ready for talks.
The most successful talks have been when the military have been in power and the BJP on the opposite side, the military won't allow the civilian government to take this forward.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:16am
You cant dictate Pakistan to talk to you on one matter or two, if there has to be a talk then it will be on all the issues...the better India get this the better it is for the region!
p.s., demilitarization is the only solution, neither Pakistan nor India will give its piece of land, so this is the only solution.....but modi has to get votes on some issue next time what else will be there if Kashmir is solved?
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Oct 02, 2015 02:17am
need to find a way
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Oct 02, 2015 02:17am
Good going India
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Oct 02, 2015 02:22am
If Pakistan was the one who breaded talibans then you should also know who provided funds for that, it was US.....so ultimately it was US the one you should be blaming....why you are maligning your country's name by saying such things which even common people know?
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Oct 02, 2015 02:24am
India & Pakistan are engaged in a classic game of chicken with neither wanting to concede any advantage to the other. India wants Pakistan to take action against terrorists which target India before talking about resolving Kashmir AND Pakistan wants India to talk about resolving Kashmir before it takes action against India specific terrorism. Both are waiting for the other to blink but both are the losers here. IMO looking at the internal & external strengths of the two countries, India can afford to wait out much longer than Pakistan can. I hope better sense prevails and both sides come to their senses soon.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:25am
“but talks and terror cannot go together.- very clearly articulated.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:27am
Why Pakistan demoralise itself for asking dialogue. Keep our own house in order India itself will ask for dialogue. Rapprochement on begging may not serve dignity and national interests.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:28am
I really admire that Dawn publishes both side's news without manipulation.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:30am
Are we sick of hearing about Kashmir yet? Everywhere else in India Muslims are minorities and face varying degrees of discrimination. In Pakistan the non-Muslims face discrimination. Yet all we hear about is Muslims suffering in Muslim majority Kashmir. Clearly the agenda on both sides has nothing to do with actual human suffering.
All politicians should shut up about Kashmir and start talking about health-care, women's rights and education.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:31am
Excellent Mrs. Sushma! Very well articulated and well resonated with the International community.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:32am
India calls for revival of terrorism talks? So who cancelled the talks?
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Oct 02, 2015 02:33am
In other words, illegal occupation of Kashmir by India will continue.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:43am
A correct stance by India.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:43am
Nice reply by the iron lady of India !!
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Oct 02, 2015 02:49am
Well, this was expected. Its back to Ufa where it all started. I still believe talks are the best option. Just get started on whatever the two premiers discussed and agreed upon.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:51am
This was expected. The situation will continue the same way as long as India commands a bigger economic clout in the region. Pakistan can challenge India only by developing its economy otherwise the day is not far when India will call the shots completely at all forums.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:51am
look who is talking!!!
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Oct 02, 2015 02:51am
No surprise to hear, 4 points declined by India, as India is stubborn about its agenda which is against Pakistan and against minorities in India so no peace expectation under Modi govt. It is also very strange you talk about De-terrorise in Pakistan which Pak is doing very well, but you not implementing this in Kashmir,shame!
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Oct 02, 2015 02:52am
Madam, stop playing with words and start talking about the ground realities in Kashmir. Why do you need 700,000 ground troops in Kashmir? Because Kashmiris don't want to be part of India so you had to bring in guns to keep them under control...... That's exactly why you've refused to de-militarize Kashmir! Truth is bitter! Isn't it???
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Oct 02, 2015 02:52am
Sensible enough. What have we achieved from all those talks and paperworks so far. Wasting tax money on the front and then planning to stab in the back to have better bargaining. Its the ISI and RAW who should be talking before anyone else.
Reality is none of the 3 countries will leave an inch of kashmir . And we yet are not mature enough as democracies to allow plebiscites yet.
Just focus on what we have got , stop sending terrorists to each other and re visit matter in 20 years !
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Oct 02, 2015 02:52am
Why do we put up with them, Mr. Nawaz please focus on China Pakistan Economic Corridor. India doesn't want Pakistan to prosper and develop, so let them dream and please focus on Pakistan, I'm sure most of you will make out what I'm trying to say here, :).
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Oct 02, 2015 02:53am
Who cares what u want, if u continue with the mantra "main naa maanon haar", then let it be like this
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Oct 02, 2015 02:57am
This proves that they don't want peace simple. No rocket science to understand what's their motive. A nation which never accepted Pakistan as a country will never support peace and stability in Pakistan. Wasted opportunity as always by India. Way to go Pakistan.. Long live PAKISTAN
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Oct 02, 2015 03:05am
100% agree with Sushma Sawaraj.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:06am
as expected more war mongering from India.
pakistan should just ignore India and focus on its domestic issues. Once we sort things out at home and with the China corridor our economy starts to pick up, it will be the Indians running to us.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:10am
India does not want peace but dominance of its neighbors. People of Kashmir wants their freedom, by calling it terrorism is non starter.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:10am
Very valid point
No point in talks with pskistan
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Oct 02, 2015 03:11am
Here we go again in circles while the common man suffers.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:13am
So shall PK start by asking India to stop supporting terrorism and separatism? How about Indias desire to influence Afghanistan to use as a proxy against PK? How about Indians state sponsored terror against Kashmiris? How about Modis supported terror against Muslims? You terrorized Nepal. This was all state sponsored. The root cause of the dispute and poor relations is Kashmir. So why play the victime when you are the aggressor and a state sponsor of terrorism?. What more needs to be said, you are against the wishes of Kashmiris, you are against the wishes of PK and you are against the wishes of the UNO.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:14am
Grabs popcorns and watch!
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Oct 02, 2015 03:19am
No need to talk to India. Expecting any thing good from Modi government is living in fools paradise....
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Oct 02, 2015 03:21am
So, let us negotiate a four plus one plan.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:22am
That's exactly what Pakistan proposed. Start the peace talks to stop the terrorism in Pakistan/Kashmir and else where.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:23am
Yet another serious joke without any substance, mass or density by the "butcher of Gujrat's" administration and its cronies.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:32am
Well said
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Oct 02, 2015 03:34am
Brilliant!!! Way to Go, Sushma Ji!!.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:35am
She is one of the finest speaker of our time. She articulated what needs to be done not just india-pak peace but also for empowering women and girl child. Thank you Sushmaji for a wonderful speech at UN.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:35am
Way to go India!!!
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Oct 02, 2015 03:36am
Very surprised at the honestly of this article. Kudos to the author.
Having said that, if Pak is indeed making serious effort in not distinguishing good and bad t3rrorists, Ind should help Pak in its pursuit as a good neighbor.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:48am
Arrogant reply from India . There will not be any peace between India and Pakistan unless fanatic BJP is ruling.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:51am
Excellent speech and agenda defined by Sushma Swaraj. I think, thats the only way possible. first sort out terrorism related issue, then come to other issues...
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Oct 02, 2015 03:55am
Cant Indian minister see Pakistan government all out action against terrorist through out Pakistan in which thousands of security people have laid down their lives.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:57am
@Ali Gohar Ask Pakistani occupied kashmir people, they will tell u better.
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Oct 02, 2015 04:13am
@irfan and others banking on the Chinese economic collaboration. Have you paid attention to the Chinese economic news lately?
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Oct 02, 2015 04:14am
Wonderful Speech; Close to the Truth;
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Oct 02, 2015 04:21am
@Fazal Karim for whose benefits who in the first place created these snakes? why did it wait decades to start eradicating them? Why is there a differentiation between a good and a bad terrorist? Why are they not removing terrorist cells from the eastern border?
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Oct 02, 2015 04:24am
There is hardly any terrorism in India but that is all they want to talk about....narrow mindedness and hatred towards Pakistan will not lead india anywhere.
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Oct 02, 2015 04:29am
With all due respect but Mrs Swaraj is a lady with little to none diplomatic acumen. India failed to understand that their defensive response is nothing but a win for Pakistan here. Both sides were well aware that practical solutions are still far fetched, but Pakistan wants to internationalize Kashmir & Siachen issues all while exposing India's non-seriousness regarding resumption of diplomatic talks. India who all we hear about from Indians is for economy and progressive issues, actually caught napping here. They wouldn't have to say anything in response to Nawaz Sharif speech and it wouldn't have made a penny of difference, instead Mrs. Swaraj went defensive and actually substantiated Pakistan's concern. That is basic diplomacy Mrs. Swaraj, unfortunately you lost here and couldn't catch Pakistan's bluff.
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Oct 02, 2015 04:32am
@Naveen Chauhan Those reports which conveniently appeared across the Indian media just a day before PM Nawaz Sharif's address were nothing but concocted one. The protest shown were actually from inside Pakistan and not Azad Kashmir. One can't expect anything better from Indian media, but at least they should've done their homework before making such videos. We all on this side of border had a good time laughing through all of it.
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Oct 02, 2015 04:33am
Peace along border and in South Asia is tied with Kashmir issue, once Kashmir belongs to Pakistan , their will be peace and terror free atmosphere in south Asia.
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Oct 02, 2015 04:33am
@Khan Gee Pak gives very soft replies did you read them???
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Oct 02, 2015 04:39am
@Ali Gohar Who said Kasmiris are not living good except some people create chaos otherwise its good
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Oct 02, 2015 04:40am
I think Nawaz sharif or whoever wrote the speach already replied to this argument very well
"Unfortunately, some seek to use the global campaign against terrorism to suppress the legitimate right of occupied peoples to self -determination"
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Oct 02, 2015 04:41am
@Iqbal Khan Yes, Pakistan should refrain asking for peace talks. Pakistan should have a compaign to draw world's attention towards attrocities and killings of indian occupied Kashmir. Pakistan should cut of supply to Afghan goods for 30 days, every time afghans allow foreigners attck Pakistan. Pakistan should develop stroger economy and even stronger military. Thats the only way India would come asking for dialogue to resolve Kashmir issue.
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Oct 02, 2015 04:48am
For months, Pakistani leader talked about exposing India's involvement in spreading terrorism in Pakistan at the UN in front of the world but in the end it was India who actually did it.
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Oct 02, 2015 04:52am
As I have written before the voices in Pakistani neighborhood are getting bolder and louder. How long will it's politicians propagate false information to keep their people busy in false pride... Time will tell.
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Oct 02, 2015 04:54am
@Akram
U don't know?? Well, Ask urself
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Oct 02, 2015 04:55am
@Khan Gee
Like there was ever any peace in the past
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Oct 02, 2015 04:57am
@Valar Morgulis
Ok go celebrate in ur well
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Oct 02, 2015 04:57am
@Khan Gee
If stopping terrorism is FANATICISM, then whole world is Fanatic.
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Oct 02, 2015 05:05am
@KeyPoints But Pakistan should never relinquish the terror card as this is the only card held by Pakistan. Terrorism and talk must walk together to satisfy the internal factions of Pakistan. Just follow the wish list given by PM Nawaz Sharif or always be ready to face the terrorism.
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Oct 02, 2015 05:08am
What did Pakistan get from raising Kashmir issue at UN ? Did any other country at least acknowledged the issue ? NO. It vitiated the already spoiled atmosphere as India went ballistic in its reply.
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Oct 02, 2015 05:11am
Terrorism related issues are the product of Kashmir issue, putting the cart before the horse is being brainless. Unless Kashmir issue isn't resolved nothing else will.
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Oct 02, 2015 05:12am
@Akram Pakistan. Don't you know that?
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Oct 02, 2015 05:13am
@Atul more than what can said about your media, which apparently knows the facts befor they even come out
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Oct 02, 2015 05:15am
International media has highlighted the attrocities taking place in Azad Kashmir.But not the atrocities in indian occupied Kashmir. Is it not failure of Pakistan establishment and diplomacy?
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Oct 02, 2015 05:16am
It is very interesting how polarized are the views of people on both sides. If only religion is taken out, would these exist? I thought religion is suppose to make people better. But all over the world, the root cause of major political issue is religious divide. A new global religion of humanity is the call of the day to unite people.
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Oct 02, 2015 05:17am
@wasi quresghi 'Long live' is a great slogan but little else. But the country has to live on peace, prosperity, economic development and internal as well as external security. Regardless of whether India is right or wrong, it is Pakistan that is suffering for decades whereas India has played a shewed game by developing itself. Since it's approach is definitely not working for Pakistan, a different direction should be considered. After a couple of decades of focus on actual human and economic indicators, I think India and the world will pay more respect to Pakistans' voice. Right now it lacks credibility despite its push in high forums.
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Oct 02, 2015 05:18am
@Naveen Chauhan Pakistani Kashmiris are among the most successful, educated, literate, savvy, and nationalist of all Pakistanis. Thanks for your advice
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Oct 02, 2015 05:19am
I still see no desire for compromise or wish for peace from either side. What is coming to our neighborhood could be worse than Syria and Iraq. Even the learned and read men of this board do not recognise it. Sad. Very sad.
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Oct 02, 2015 05:19am
Nations need to give up to grow up it applies both the nations because both countries people need is Development, education health, housing, drinking water, and very important poverty alleviation.
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Oct 02, 2015 05:21am
@Zak what makes you think so. Look around and read history. These issues are more complex than you think. But the solution is simple. Desire to live in peace.
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Oct 02, 2015 05:22am
Indian arrogance once again exposed. Pak should not beg dialogue with India. Make Pakistan strong though fighting corruption, strengthening civil institution, promoting education & health, etc.
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Oct 02, 2015 05:25am
@Zak Brother, we will be better off trying to introspect our own contribution towards the current gloom rather than putting everything on the door of Kasmir. Our politicians, army and the foreign educated bureaucrats from elite families are fooling the entire population by highlighting the K factor as he main cause for backwardness of 70 years rather than owning up their own negligence and ignorance at th ecost of millions of Pakistanis.
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Oct 02, 2015 06:00am
@Shehz "Terrorism related issues are the product of Kashmir issue, putting the cart before the horse is being brainless. Unless Kashmir issue isn't resolved nothing else will." What do you mean? You will continue with Terrorism as instrument of state policy?
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Oct 02, 2015 06:03am
@Fazal Karim No Fazal, there are no actions taken against those terrorists which have been running an anti India crusade from Pakistani soil, definition of terrorists is different in Pakistan than rest of the world which calls LeT and Hisb as terrorists operating from Pakistan.
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Oct 02, 2015 06:22am
In present circumstances it is in every country's interest to join hands to fight terrorism. Terrorists are Frankenstein monsters, sooner than later they turn to the creators. Afghani Taliban turned against USA, Pakistan Taliban and other groups turned against Pakistan, Watch and mark my words ISIS will soon turn against its nurturer and financier. One-point agenda is the best for all nations. Forget all other differences and eradicate terrorism from Earth.
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Oct 02, 2015 06:23am
@KeyPoints Keep dreaming.
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Oct 02, 2015 06:32am
Pakistan can't be held responsible or accountable for the none state actors that we are fighting ourselves for the past 15 years.
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Oct 02, 2015 06:32am
@Iqbal Khan It is Pakistan that has to resolve Kashmir issue a part of which it grabbed by invading in 1948 and then gifted a part of that to China. I wish Modi was the Prime minister rather than Nehru and the problem of Kashmir would have resolved in 1948.
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Oct 02, 2015 06:40am
Sometimes I do feel bad for what's happening in the valley. With people and local populace suffering, but I do like the way the media houses project the whole situation as the worst in the world. Very frank with you it's better than Karachi atleast. but on the other hand they say what u sow so shall you reap. Y'all played the pandits. Now get what you asked for.
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Oct 02, 2015 06:41am
@Zak You can not force somebody to give up the ownership of something...that is called terror
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Oct 02, 2015 06:45am
What is next more likely another trip to UN for our PM and his entourage
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Oct 02, 2015 06:47am
Well said “We don't need four points, we need just one: Give up terrorism and let us sit down and talk” Same applies to India Govt. who helps terror plots from Bulichistan
Pak people must think in reality and give up the ugly terrorism and hateration in any form. If you want to know Truth "Don't see everything with your brainwashed thoughts".
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Oct 02, 2015 06:51am
Spot on, Mrs. Swaraj !
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Oct 02, 2015 07:01am
@Valar Morgulis you may want to believe that and your are free to do so, but turning away from ground reality will not solve the problems for you. Any atrocity anywhere is bad, while in India whether we like it or not we discuss and condemn every heinous act in our country (the educated mass), we don't run away, because that's the only way how we can make our country better. Same is true for Pakistan, to defend your country you don't need defend atrocities or just shrug it off, instead please recognize them and tell them bad without fear, that will project Pakistan as a strong country, if that's your intention.
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Oct 02, 2015 07:01am
Politicians on both side are beating their dead horses. Blaming each other will never deliver anything & the poor masses will continue to suffer..
If they are sincere, they must challenge their own perceptions & use some imagination to visualize a prosperous future for all people of the subcontinent. One can not win at the expense of the other, it wont last. Try & change the narrative for a start...
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Oct 02, 2015 07:04am
Pakistan must stay out of internal affairs of its neighbors.
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Oct 02, 2015 07:07am
@wasi quresghi wasi...there is an interesting video on YouTube by MJ Akbar on the exact reasons for creating Pakistan as a separate nation for Indian Muslims. Now Indian Muslims of that time included the present day Pak and present day Bangladesh. And why even then not all Muslims of India liked that idea and only half went to new country. It was created only for sharing of power more than anything else.
Very interesting video that brings to light a very logical set of things and reasons that are so different that common understanding.
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Oct 02, 2015 07:09am
Indian and Pakistani politicians are a waste of time because they have their own "matlab". Try getting a flight from bombay to karachi and you will see how packed the flights are. People power now rules between India and Pakistan.
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Oct 02, 2015 07:20am
Both countries should come clean, including India's RAW involvement regarding Baluchistan and Karachi thru Altaf.
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Oct 02, 2015 07:34am
@Atul Yes Dawn is a neatural newspaper inthe world of papparassis.
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Oct 02, 2015 07:36am
Sushma Swaraj's speech made perfect sense.
State machinery being used for Mumbai carnage, perpetrators of Mumbai carnage allowed free in the country, and yet Nawaz Sharif is proposing peace talk. Nawaz might be very sincere in his initiative, but is definitely not in sync with the powerful body that makes foreign policy and uses terrorism as a statecraft.
Pakistani people should strengthen Nawaz more, so that he is able to bring his house/army under parliament's control. Else, Pakistan will be in the same cycle of denial about its terror policies and coming out with more 4 point proposals.
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Oct 02, 2015 07:36am
@Fazal Karim What about the infiltrators to India?
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Oct 02, 2015 07:37am
Leaders like Mr Musharraf can resolve all the issues between the two sides including Kashmir.
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Oct 02, 2015 07:48am
I wish there is one news agency as DAWN in India. 80% journalist n 20% patriotism but we hv 20% masala, 20% opinion, 20% news, 20% journalism , 20% politics ...
Dawn , I read India news here to get news n for entertainment I go to ours.
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Oct 02, 2015 07:55am
@Irfan M brother, don't depend on china, usa etc..do it on your own.Pakistan will be respected and finally prosper for real..
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Oct 02, 2015 07:55am
Dear PM, liberals and intellectuals wanted to pursue for peace with India. Now they have seen what India's response is. We are thankful to you that you made your sincere efforts. I am coming back to Pakistan to serve my country.
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Oct 02, 2015 07:57am
Very fair retort to diversionary tactics of Pakistan. Breeding, training, sheltering terrorists and sponsoring terror activities in neighboring countries and around the world is the basis on which Pakistan has earned global fame and renown. The world acknowledges the same, well aware of how the most dreaded OBL , Haqqani network and Mullah Omar were protected.
If the intentions are to resolve differences then blackmail using terror assets needs to be shed. India is committed to ridding South Asia from the scourge of sponsored terrorism, any country willing to join hands will be welcome. Past policies have brought only misery for Pakistan. Without changing course the same can only continue.
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Oct 02, 2015 07:59am
@wasi quresghi we want peace, and we have learned that just by giving blood to Mosquitos (that is terrorism) we can't avoid dengue.. We just need to eliminate Mosquitos and their breeding ground... Sanitize the environment and dengue will go after that only peace will come...
Breeding ground of terrorism is Pakistan, you have created them in hope to keep Kashmir issue alive and in return facing more problem yourself...now can't stop them and you are hoping that if Kashmir get solve hope you can control these menace ... Which is wrong startegy.. You have seen result of that stupid strategy of Zia in Afghanistan...
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Oct 02, 2015 07:59am
Actually Pakistan played its card today...
NEW YORK: Adviser to the Prime Minister on National Security and Foreign Affairs, Sartaj Aziz has said that dossiers containing proof of Indian involvement in terrorist activities in Pakistan have been handed over to the United Nations.
Briefing the media men here, Sataj Aziz said three dossiers were handed over to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon by Permanent Representative of Pakistan to the United Nations, Maliha Lodhi.
He said the dossiers contained evidence of Indian involvement in the acts of terrorism in Balochistan, Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and Karachi. “India is providing help to terrorists in Balochistan, FATA and Karachi,” he added.
The Foreign Advisor said India has been violating the ceasefire agreement with Pakistan at the Line of Control (LoC) and that foreign ministers of 15 countries have been apprised of the Indian aggression in Pakistan.
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Oct 02, 2015 08:19am
What else you expect from Them?
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Oct 02, 2015 08:19am
@Gurpreet Singh Sabharwal (USA) - Where did they expose??
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Oct 02, 2015 08:23am
Who knows terrorism more than india that's what they have been doing in Pakistan for decades. Nobody cares about these speeches as everyone knows what india is doing in afghanistan to destabilize Pakistan. I am proud of Pakistan Army that how bravely they are fighting against terrorism.
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Oct 02, 2015 08:24am
@Atul absolutely correct
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Oct 02, 2015 08:34am
Sushma Swaraj Ji Pakistan's Ambassador in the US has just hander over the dossier to the secretary general of the United Nations on Indian interference in Pakistan’s internal affairs and on fomenting terrorism on Pakistan’s soil by India. Your government stands exposed. "Friends are like pillars on your porch. Sometimes they hold you up and sometimes they lean on you."
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Oct 02, 2015 08:40am
I think you havent put the entire details....Swaraj has asked Pak to discontinue the illegal occupation in Kashmir, and also to stop blatant human rights abuse in Kashmir...Kudos...Next India should raise the issue of Torture,killings and mass genocide in Balochistan by Pak..Azad Balochistan Zindabad...
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Oct 02, 2015 08:42am
This is great journalism on the part of Dawn for projecting India's side as well without any ifs and buts.
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Oct 02, 2015 08:48am
The incompetence of this woman boggles the mind. Indian sponsored terrorism in Indian occupied Kashmir, is leading to a kashmiri freedom struggle, which India wants to talk to pakistan about. As pakistan said, address the source, I.e indian illegal occupation of kashmir, and the violence will end. That's a no brainer, women. But if india wants to stall the talks, then keep harping on the 'freedom fighters' of kashmir, which is resistance to the indian invader , who will term it 'terrorism'.
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Oct 02, 2015 08:50am
@tito basu we cannot stop about kashmir, because 150,000 have dies under indian hands. And this is the cause of all the misery for the entire region, with ever looming threat of a catastrophic war. Stop evading and start facing.
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Oct 02, 2015 08:50am
Kudos to Dawn for providing a forum where citizens from both countries can exchange views.
Pakistan has been a victim of terrorism and has recently made valiant efforts to eliminate radical elements. If it can also act against Mumbai attack mastermind and LeT, peace process and dialogue with India will start immediately. The question is will Pakistan army allow these simple steps ?
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Oct 02, 2015 08:51am
@Shehz Even if the logic is accepted, then the question is who has Pak oppressed so much that it has become a battleground?
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Oct 02, 2015 09:01am
@Shehz With full due respect to u sir, i think the horse is not the brainless one here.
Terrorists have killed our children here, as well as in India. Let us stop supporting whats wrong, no matter where or against whom it operates.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:02am
@Fazal Karim. Bro, according to pakistan, there are two types of Taliban / terrorists / fighters whatever u name them.. Bad ones r those who are spreading terrorism in pakistan. And pak govt is only going behind them. Good ones are those who attack india.. So LeT, JeM etc according to u are good guys.. And you are not taking any steps to curb terrorism emanting from ur land
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Oct 02, 2015 09:07am
No more discussion on Kashmir please. India and Pakistan should mind there own side of LOC and it should be converted to international border. Lets bury the issue and focus of development.
(unless politicians wanted to keep exploiting public emotions).
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Oct 02, 2015 09:11am
@Fazal Karim They might be doing all out action in west, but no action is east !!
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Oct 02, 2015 09:15am
@Valar Morgulis Pakistan has no cards to play with. Its hands are tied. Act on terrorism is what, not just India but rather the whole world is telling Pakistan. Plain and simple. Kashmir is a non-issue. Plain and simple.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:17am
Pakistan, China, Srilanka, Nepal, Bangladesh and Bhutan equally know the source of terrorism and unstability in the region......
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Oct 02, 2015 09:18am
While India is raising the issue of terrorism at all fronts very effectively. The rulers here are still thinking to hand over the dossier on Indian involvement in terrorism in our country to the UN. Very strange response indeed.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:20am
Pakistan is proposing Kashmir be part of the agenda, not the only agenda.
India doesnt want to hear the K word.
Even the agenda for talks cannot be agreed upon. Lets just look the other way for a decade and then think about talking to each other.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:21am
Sharif strategy backfired???
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Oct 02, 2015 09:21am
@Faisal Bajwa non state actors was a part of pakistan policy during cold war.. read your history books again..
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Oct 02, 2015 09:22am
@Valar Morgulis Hi, this is pure doublespeak by Pakistan and thanks for exposing it yourself.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:22am
One thing is clear india will not negotiate with a gun pointed at its head.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:23am
@tito basu, there are about 20 crore muslims in India, and even the Vice president is a Muslim, they are doing fine like any others in India... no body is mistreated...
I dont think that is the case with minorities in under developed Pakistan.. C0unt the number of number of temples destroyed in Pakistan to number of Mosques and temples destroyed in India.. All most all ancient monuments and historic temples are erased from pakistan.. Except babri masjid, there are thousands of mosques in india, happy and good
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Oct 02, 2015 09:25am
Why wasting time of UN; Indo-pak border can't be redrawn. This is hard core fact. Pakistan need to accept it.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:32am
@Faisal Bajwa Then what is the point in talking to Pakistan?
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Oct 02, 2015 09:33am
@SHAH The entire world knows it's Pakistan. Need convincing - go and have a look at what's being taught at many hundreds of madrassas in Pakistan, especially in the deprived regions. No good could possibly come out of that.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:37am
@Faisal Bajwa
"Pakistan can't be held responsible or accountable for the none state actors that we are fighting ourselves for the past 15 years."
You should not have created them in first place! Since you did, you are responsible.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:50am
@Akram It was Pakistan that cancelled the talks.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:52am
Please dont look at the one side of pic. Understand eachother dont u all know how Europe has developed. They fight for centuries but now they all are going to prosperity. we after 67 years same speeches same wording condemn each other. facing poverty, unemployment. I read a news from india where 23 lac applications were received for the post of 300+ peons From UP and 253 of them were from Phd holders and thousands from graduate persons. we all know that waar can not bring peace. abusing eachother wil not make prosperity.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:53am
Pakistan is keen to have 'Peace Deal' with India as soon as possible. It is up to India to accept it to have peaceful solution of all issues including Kashmir and Terrorism.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:57am
As a add on to my previous comment: the world knows it was India who blew off talks in the latest rounds. Pakistan has always wanted to sit down peacefully, even under President Musharraf who went to Agra but came home without a deal and now under PM Sharif who happens to have businesses in India.
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Oct 02, 2015 10:08am
@wasi quresghi if one saying that stop terrorism that means they are not interested in peace talk?
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Oct 02, 2015 10:20am
@RG this is no reply to a logical solution, India is simply being stubborn as usual.
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Oct 02, 2015 10:21am
Dawn is incredible in its unbiased reporting. I love it. In the scourge of jingoism, religious fanatism on both side, this publication is a breath of fresh air. Please keep up the good work.
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Oct 02, 2015 10:33am
@Zak that will remain a dream....
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Oct 02, 2015 10:33am
pl pass on this Advice to India which is not sparing even Nepal. India want to introduce Indian drafted constitution instead of the present one. India instigating Madhesis to create violence in Nepal. The supply to Nepal have been stopped to pressrise Nepal to change the constitution. What more glaring example of interference in neighbours matters you need?
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Oct 02, 2015 10:37am
@Shehz OK fine..then continue business as usual. Who is stopping ?
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Oct 02, 2015 10:38am
So in other words, India's terrorism in Kashmir will continue!
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Oct 02, 2015 10:45am
Well said Minister.
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Oct 02, 2015 10:47am
@A. Ali
worry about peace in your own country
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Oct 02, 2015 10:49am
@Atul Same cannot be said about indian media unfortunately.
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Oct 02, 2015 10:50am
@wasi quresghi
peace will benefit pakistan more then india
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Oct 02, 2015 10:54am
Pakistan can continue to pose as saviour of Kashmiris; but the fact remains that even if dialogue does take place, territory lost in battleground can not be won back by dialogue. Earlier this is appreciated, better it is for South Asia.
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Oct 02, 2015 10:57am
I dont understant why pak allways want to talk about kashmir, as every pakistani and pak govt understand it that india will never give away kashmir. And we are just spending so much of resources and time without any internal development in the country.
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Oct 02, 2015 11:00am
@A. Ali
without peace forget china corridor
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Oct 02, 2015 11:02am
Pakistan must realise that India's line is very clear. It will only talk to Pakistani civil leadership that is democratically elected & have full authority.
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Oct 02, 2015 11:03am
@Zak
keep dreaming & continue spending on arms to match india
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Oct 02, 2015 11:10am
@Fazal Karim we see action against groups operating against Pakistan, while the groups operating against india are left untouched.
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Oct 02, 2015 11:12am
Actually the Indian response is quite understandable if we consider that Indians want to maintain status quo and it is the status quo they want to live in. They have not noticed that we Pakistanis have moved on and are fighting our terror outfits without discrimination.
Irony is that the biggest loser in this all will be no one else but India as brining itself to the level of a small neighbour it is sending message to the world that it is still a child trapped in a big boy's body. And keeping on the track that Pakistan has chosen, it will gain all the moral ground lost due to its faulty past policies at the cost of India.
May Modi sarkar keep India on such idiotic track forever as it will indirectly help Pakistan by making India look like a country that cannot maintain its position in its backyard let alone on a world stage.
Last point I want to say is that keeping Pak-Ind dialogue exclusively bilateral is not working even if it was agreed. If not working then changed it.
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Oct 02, 2015 11:21am
Terror and talks cannot go side by side.
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Oct 02, 2015 11:24am
@shaer Khan, you have perfectly said that it is the Kashmiri people who have to decide and not Pakistan and India.
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Oct 02, 2015 11:27am
@shaer Khan
lets resolve Baluchistan issue first ..it is MUCH bigger issue !
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Oct 02, 2015 11:31am
@R Yegya Narayanan it's called international diplomacy my friend. Unfortunately, Pakistan has learned a lot about its eastern neighbors from more than handful instances in the past and know well that India has to be dealt in its own language. So Pakistan is doing just that, nothing wrong there.
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Oct 02, 2015 11:32am
India is also sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan. what about that ma'am!
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Oct 02, 2015 11:33am
@Zak ,Who are you to declare that Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. It is the Kashmiri people who have to decide, not you and me.
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Oct 02, 2015 11:38am
india does not sincerely want peace with pakistan otherwise she would have given a thought to nawaz sharif's suggestions.
india stop interfering in balochistan and afghanistan. yes stop terrorism.
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Oct 02, 2015 11:39am
@sana-2
India doesn't votes for/on Kashmir issue... we vote for Development.
I don't know if in Pakistan Kashmir could be bigger agenda than anything else but India votes for education, health, security, uplifting human life to higher standards..
So Modi (A representative of People Of India) and People of Indian will keep their focus on these whereas you can keep your delusion that Indian politicians get vote for such issues.
Wake-up...
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Oct 02, 2015 11:40am
@shaer Khan Everybody knows neither of these two countries will leave part they have. Best and practical solution is to make LOC , a permanent border and give some liberty to travel kashmiris on bothe sides.
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Oct 02, 2015 11:41am
Very good response from Indian Foreign Minister!!
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Oct 02, 2015 11:41am
pakistanis will not offer peace talks everyday. every country and society has problems and menaces and so do we pakistanis have too. but india has clearly been interfering in balochistan and afghanistan. you are no angels. and kashmir will be highlighted. why not??
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Oct 02, 2015 11:46am
Indian response is not a diplomatic. Her foreign minister used a threatening language while PM of Pakistan used a stateman language. India think she is a muscle man of Asia. That is a nightmare.
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Oct 02, 2015 11:47am
@Khalid
3. India is using every international forum to push a very positive image. the world can see that the govt is improving drastically. FDI is up, market is up. investments are up. start ups are running. India is now building a good network with other countries. meaning, the countries are interested to work hand in hand with India. Now on such forums, Pakistan only has 2 things, Kashmir and Zarb operations. of which, kashmir.. the world doesn't really care. and Zarb, Pakistan really need to submit proofs. Pakistan talks about it. but proofs? has terrorist strikes come down? to what level?
4. Pakistan must understand that India is not bluffing about terrorism in Pakistan. Can you count how many foreign countries have set up infrastructures in Pakistan ground?
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Oct 02, 2015 11:51am
India need to understand Pakistan's internal and external problems and resolve these in a diplomatic way rather than blameing Pakistan
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Oct 02, 2015 11:52am
@shaer Khan .. Man.. Not sure what Kashmir talks you want to do with India.. If u think India is going to give away Kashmir to Pakistan after talk, then this is not going to happen in next 5 centuries..What kasmiri want does not matter. That way half of indian state want independent country including south and bangal, panjab and gujarat.Same is true for majority of country including USA. It dont work that way. Nothing happen in last 60 years even after 3 war. What you are going to achieve by Kashmir talk? Both country should focus on improving life of people and economy and accept international boarder what currently situated.
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Oct 02, 2015 11:59am
@Valar Morgulis It is true that by responding to Nawaz Sharif's speech, Sushama Swaraj may have internationalize Kashmir issue which Pakistan wants
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Oct 02, 2015 12:02pm
The choice for India is clear: Peace or politics? If it is peace then talk about every aspect of our relationship.
The world is watching intently. For an aspiring super-power the fine art of diplomacy is indispensable. What they are getting from India is a "single-sentence" foreign policy reaction.
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Oct 02, 2015 12:08pm
karachi and fata area where Raw and India government is doing terrorism in pakistan. Nasal sharif is a spine less leader otherwise he should have raised this in UN.
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Oct 02, 2015 12:09pm
Well done ma'am.. everyone knows India's status
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Oct 02, 2015 12:16pm
@Pranav Modi well said
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Oct 02, 2015 12:17pm
India is doing terror activities in Pakistan and they are asking for yet another talk. What a joke. Indian politicians and their think tanks are always worst for Pakistan.
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Oct 02, 2015 12:17pm
The country of pakistan sustaining on patriotic emotions. Start the process of development first
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Oct 02, 2015 12:20pm
@Pakistani Dream? Let India dream? Dream about what? India is making it happen in science & technology, education & economy.
India is not dreaming anymore. It is making the dream come true.
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Oct 02, 2015 12:21pm
One Point Agenda Implement UN Resolution!
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Oct 02, 2015 12:23pm
@A Pakistani Let's end tit for tat because it is not helping anybody.
But you say that the world is watching. The world elected India to the temporary security council seat few years back with just 2 countries not favoring India in the whole wide world.
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Oct 02, 2015 12:26pm
So what about "fighting terrorists with terrorists" , dear Indian trolls ? Whatever happened to that ?
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Oct 02, 2015 12:30pm
Indias refusal to even talk about peace shows just how "serious" they are about promoting peace. As for fighting terrorism , Pakistan is playing it's role to curb terrorism in the region . The question is , what is India doing ? The increasing number of RAW agents that are being caught in Pakistan gives a very clear idea of what India is doing !
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Oct 02, 2015 12:44pm
@Akram obviously Pakistan, India did not cancel the talks. Mr. Sartaz Aziz canceled meeting.
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Oct 02, 2015 12:46pm
Both countries are up to no good. Just sit down and talk. There is iron lady or man in negotiation. Humanity loses when people start acting tough and often it end up undesirable consequences which is war.
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Oct 02, 2015 12:49pm
Let people of Kashmir should decide their fate....simple
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Oct 02, 2015 12:50pm
as a humble indian I think we have a point
a one point peace plan is better then 4 point peace plan
would u not agree?
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Oct 02, 2015 12:51pm
Madam is trying to give the impression that India is clean over terrorism as just come out ganga river. To put the record straight India is involved in the terrorist activities in Pakistan, Sri-lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal.
This is a digital world so first listen to Ajit Doval threats he hurls on Pakistan and his involvement in such activities.
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Oct 02, 2015 12:56pm
@sana-2 , Mr. Modi has public approval on economic development of India. What has Pakistan's government got other than Kashmir?
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Oct 02, 2015 01:08pm
@sana-2 - You seem to be treating terrorism as normal situation. Terrorism is damaging both countries there should be an urgent talk on Terrorism.
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Oct 02, 2015 01:11pm
Could I recommend that you also provide for "disagree" option
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Oct 02, 2015 01:14pm
Dawn readers are decent. I do not find abuses unlike in some other news papers.
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Oct 02, 2015 01:14pm
India is a big country and it seized by force the state of Jammu & Kashmir against the wishes of the people of the state and against the basic rules of partition. This was the greatest act of terrorism by a country which continues to this day. The UN has passed several resolutions instructing holding of plebiscite in the state but all of them have proved to be nothing but paper tigers. This shows that the UN is also siding with India behind the scenes. Might is indeed right.
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Oct 02, 2015 01:25pm
@Gurpreet Singh Sabharwal (USA) I think you mean the side that is suffering more comes to its senses soon.
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Oct 02, 2015 01:29pm
@Khan Gee - not sure, if this depends on any particular government in India now. From now onwards the response from India will be different.
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Oct 02, 2015 01:34pm
India to Pakistan. " Talks and terror cannot go together.”
"We don't need four points, we need just one: Give up terrorism and let us sit down and talk ".
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Oct 02, 2015 01:53pm
Thank you sushma ji!
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Oct 02, 2015 01:58pm
Kashmir is a non issue. Don't waste your time.This is the real message.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:13pm
@WiseFool solution is simple UN plebiscite.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:42pm
@Alam - It is like Us interferes in Syria. For US, Barshad and his rule are not acceptable. Similarly Us removed Sadam and Gaddafi
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Oct 02, 2015 02:43pm
If both the countries have so far failed to resolve kashmir issue through bilateral arrangements in 44 yrs time since Shimla resolution, how can they do it mutually now. Its time for the UN to intervene.
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Oct 02, 2015 02:48pm
Pakistan will get no were with modi government. Wait till new government come, and may be talk again. But for now lets put our head down, get rid of corruption, terrorism, and build our country. Once Pakistan strong, and our economy has grown, the world will want to do business with us, and listen to us.
Today its all about money, so lets start now, and leave modi and his india, because soon the world will see the real face of modi.
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Oct 02, 2015 03:49pm
India has been spending billions of dollars of accumulating arsenal rather than spending this amount on the welfare of its population. India is also allegedly involved in cross border terrorism in Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bangladesh as well as Pakistan. The extremists want to establish Indian hegemony in the region and consider Pakistan a major hurdle in achieving its objective.
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Oct 02, 2015 04:14pm
@parveez
First, Modi is going to be in power for the next 24 years, and his India includes entire Kashmir. With these riders, I agree with you.
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Oct 02, 2015 04:54pm
it's flatly rejected than politely..
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Oct 02, 2015 06:07pm
@sana-2 USA did that, exactly. But then it's between you and USA to cooperate and remove such groups.
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Oct 02, 2015 08:32pm
On 6 October 1981 Egyptian President Anwar Sadat was assassinated by a soldier of Egyptian army at almost point-blank range. Incidentally, a few months before he had spoken to the press saying that nothing happens in the world without the approval 0f the superpowers. His saying still holds true and the Indo-Pakistani problems will continue to remain unsolved indefinitely for the sake of keeping regional balance of power.
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Oct 02, 2015 09:36pm
I agree with Tito Basu. Let Pakistan be happy with their part of Kashmir and India be happy with our part of Kashmir. If in 65 years, this problem is not solved, then it will never be solved. If there is a war, and god forbid a nuclear war, there will be catastrophic damage and casualties of gigantic proportion on both sides. Lahore wiped out, Karachi wiped out, Delhi gone, Mumbai gone. What answer and future will we give to our children. They deserve much more than this. Regarding Kashmir, they are enjoying a lot more privilege than what they shows. What will Pakistani folks do to a person who eats in Pakistan, sleeps in Pakistan and even goes to a graveyard in Pakistan but will always spew poison against Pakistan. These are the separatist of J&K.
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Oct 03, 2015 01:46am
People of Pakistan should empower democratically elected leaders more than Military, then only peace is possible between India and Pakistan. If there is peace between India and Pakistan, PAK military will lose their importance in decision making. that is why peace is still elusive. Be mature my friends..
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Oct 03, 2015 05:31am
@Zak : There you are, Zak: Laying your true intentions bare for the world to see! The Interests of Kashmiris is are the last thing on your mind--clouded by dreams of territorial expansion of Pakistan..
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Oct 03, 2015 05:46am
@shaer Khan
freely , there should be no reason of breaking relationships between people. europe an countries who fought with each other throughout history have come together now as european union. this is what south asia should aim for. pakistans obsession is dividing...which had no end ...they tried the samething in punjab...hence why should india agree to this.why only kashmiri people....why not all the people"...so the only way forward is going forward and looking after the welfare of your own people instead of other people.....there is democracy...had terrrorism policy not encouraged and pakistan waging wars....there would have been no military build up. it happenen due to pakistan...and if it wants to demilitarise it has to gain the trust and create the tmosphere for the same. in the interest of all.
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Oct 03, 2015 08:37am
@Akram who cancelled the talks? Please google it.
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Oct 03, 2015 08:37am
@Ahmed totally agree with you..
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Oct 03, 2015 10:25am
Kashmir would not have been erased from the earth had Pakistan not objected to India s terms for talks,is not involving the Hurriyat first and agreeing to talks on terror. Now Pakistan has gone to the UN with proof of India's activities, why could it not have discussed that first with India. As for the Hurriyat what prevents video conference with them
Its all finding excuses not to talk,there is no sincerity.
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Oct 03, 2015 12:40pm
Nice arcticle
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Oct 03, 2015 02:14pm
very well said.
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Oct 03, 2015 02:46pm
I agree....but for the both of sides to start the actions simultaneously, Pakistan should deterrorize itself by stopping funding separatists....at the same time india should create the peaceful atmosphere for the dialogue to happen.
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Oct 03, 2015 02:59pm
Does ever Pakistani establishment think why India deployed its troops in Kashmir? It's due to the militancy. Would Pakistan deploy its troops or not to maintain law and order if the Kashmir type militancy happens there?
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Oct 04, 2015 01:44am
Pakistanis still do not get it. Their country is a basket case and they are in denial and continue to believe the conspiracy theories. As much as India wants to get the part of Kashmir ceded to China and occupied by China and Pakistan, Pakistan want to get the Kashmir from India, nothing will change even 50 years from now.
What will change in 50 years is that India's GDP will be around $70 Trillion and is likely to be the largest economy in the world. It will also be a military superpower.
If Pakistan continues this path it will be a $1Trillion economy in 50 years and Pakistanis will want to move to India to improve the lives of their families just like mexicans immigrate to US.
India will have to erect a physical/virtual wall to prevent the exodus of people from Pakistan.
Keep doing what you are doing Pakistan! That is the worst course for you to lead your people to!
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Oct 04, 2015 07:30am
@Ali Gohar its should be vice versa.
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Oct 04, 2015 04:54pm
@Zak "Peace along border and in South Asia is tied with Kashmir issue, once Kashmir belongs to Pakistan , their will be peace and terror free atmosphere in south Asia."
If and its a big if Kashmir goes to Pakistan, why do you think India will not do all that Pakistan has done in Kashmir all these years? How and why do you think that there will be peace then?
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Oct 04, 2015 08:18pm
@Zak At the end of the day Indians measure her competence. What people like you think is of no consequence.
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Oct 04, 2015 08:38pm
“To de-militarize Kashmir is not the answer, To de-terrorize Pakistan is.”...This says it all
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Oct 04, 2015 09:37pm
@Pak
India's most volatile border with Pakistan is the one bordering Kashmir, not the rajasthan-pak border or the Punjab borders. That is one reason for the troops. Also China makes regular visits to Ladakh every now and again.
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Oct 04, 2015 10:37pm
@sana-2 , your understanding of english is pathetic, She has just refused any talks ...
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Oct 04, 2015 11:07pm
well said Nawaz Iqbal . we have to stope the shadow war against each other ....
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Oct 04, 2015 11:12pm
well said Nawaz Iqbal . we have to stope the shadow war against each other ....
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