Christian Philip Hollier Turner is the United Kingdom’s High Commissioner to Pakistan since December 2019. In the span of time he’s been in Pakistan, he’s received the limelight for, among other things, a much-publicised tweet about picking up trash on the Margalla Hills (he says it was a spur of the moment decision and was not meant to be colonial lecture), his frequent clips addressing people in Pakistan in Urdu on social media and, lately, about his response to the England Cricket Board pulling out of a planned cricket tour to Pakistan last month (he expressed his disappointment at the decision).

Turner came to the civil service late — in his 30s, he’s only 49 — he points out, “mainly to get my parents off my back” about getting a regular job. Before that, having completed a PhD from the University of York in mediaeval history, he had ventured into making historical documentaries. Nevertheless, he’s had an eventful and enviable career in bureaucracy, having already served as Private Secretary to former Prime Minister Gordon Brown, as Director for Middle East and North Africa during the time of the Arab Spring and as former PM Theresa May’s adviser on international affairs and Deputy National Security Adviser.

When the chance to interview him presented itself on his visit to Karachi at the end of September, it was made clear to me by his team that his main interest was to promote COP-26, the climate change conference currently being jointly hosted by the UK in Glasgow. I offered that he could discuss it by the by along with other questions I may have for him. This was the time Pakistan had just come off the UK’s ‘Red List’ after months of travel restrictions and it was still unclear what kind of vaccinations the UK would accept from Pakistan (his revelations about the UK accepting Pakistan vaccination certificates formed an earlier exclusive in this paper).

Like an experienced media hand, however, he didn’t want to leave anything to chance, and immediately launched into what he really wanted to talk about the moment we sat down together… Excerpts from the interview…

Christian Turner: Let me just give you a little bit on climate change and why we think it matters. Most of us are familiar with the challenge. The science — the IPCC [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] saying this is a code-red for humanity. Extreme weather events and storms have probably had a five-fold increase in the last 50 years. This is going to happen more and more and it’s going to put pressure on our children. I’m not necessarily a doomsday merchant but this is pretty serious stuff.

The bad news is that countries like Pakistan will be most affected — it’s either the 5th or 6th most affected depending on which study [you look at]. I think water is a massive issue in this country and, if the glaciers are all melting, which they are, even in 20 years this looks quite bad. Then you have the coastal flooding, all the other factors, the heat-waves…The good news is we kind of know how to [deal with] this now. There are some big shifts going on. [Prime Minister Boris] Johnson calls it the green industrial revolution, the switch to renewables, [like] the Zephyr wind farm that we were out seeing yesterday. Of course for the UK, the reason we’re really focused on it is because we’re hosting the big climate talks. 140 world leaders coming together, the biggest gathering we’ve seen for many, many years, in Glasgow. The UK doesn’t have all the answers but we have managed to de-carbonise our economy while rapidly growing, so we think it can be done.

Q. One of the questions I’m sure you’ve already dealt with, is the issue of exactly how much emissions are countries like Pakistan responsible for, as opposed to more industrialised countries…

A. A tiny fraction. But it’s the wrong question. I mean, of course, this is not a case of the West, historically responsible for the majority of emissions coming and waving a finger and saying you should do it different. This is a point about what is now best for your economy. You’ve got to grow in a way that is sustainable and better for your economy. And we can help you do that.

Q. Is post-Brexit Britain now looking to engage more with the Commonwealth countries in terms of trade and investment etc?

A. I don’t think the Pakistan-UK relationship has historically been particularly defined by our membership of the European Union. I think we’re defined by our shared history, by the thing that comes up in every conversation, the diaspora. Pakistan is responsible for our largest minority community. Brits of Pakistan heritage number 1.6 million people in all walks of life, top businessmen and women, 15 MPs, they are a huge part of our national fabric now. That’s like a thread in a carpet that weaves through everything we do in that relationship, whether I’m talking Afghanistan, whether I’m talking trade opportunity, it all comes back actually to those people who travel back and forth and are central to the fabric of both nations. It’s fair to say that as we leave the EU we are looking at international markets for trade and prosperity. There’s absolutely no doubt that the UK government that I serve wants to shift and focus on Asia Pacific, take Pakistan and go eastwards to the big economies such as Japan and South Korea. But if you accept that very close linkage, why on earth would we not want to play off the connections we have here?

Q. Britain has the same historical relationship with India. With the issues Pakistan and India have, what role — if any — can the UK play?

A. India’s a huge economy and we also have deep and historic ties there and I think there’s a real danger that one looks at India-Pakistan as a see-saw. How reductive is that? That’s not how we conduct international affairs. So I think a binary approach to India-Pakistan is reductive and a little naïve and I think the era where Pakistan defined itself solely in relation to India is behind us. Pakistan has a rich web of regional relationships and we need to work with that.

Q. Coming to Afghanistan, do you see a realistic chance of the Taliban being recognised?

A. Every single international actor, including Pakistan, is saying is that we want to engage with the Taliban. My prime minister Boris Johnson was one of the first leaders to say that, we’re prepared to engage, we’d like to talk to them, we’d like to be back in Kabul. We’re not going to be hung up on previous history. We will judge the Taliban by their actions, not their words and we will build confidence to a future point of recognition. But we aren’t going to recognise unilaterally. And we recognise states not governments.

Q. Isn’t there an issue about how do you deal with the humanitarian crisis unfolding in Afghanistan without recognition?

A. No. The World Food Programme, UN agencies can fly in and address that. There is an issue about existing sanctions regimes and you saw the US lifted two particular orders to allow humanitarian aid to be delivered… What do we want? We want no return of a terrorist threat from within Afghanistan that threatens other countries including, very importantly, Pakistan. TTP [Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan], if they return — very hard for us to have a conversation. Daesh, Al Qaeda the same. Terrorism and security are one. [Then] we want access for humanitarian workers and aid to help the people who are most vulnerable. We don’t want a return of refugee flows, we don’t want revenge killing, we want stability… And we think there are some basic international norms on women being able to work and teenage girls being able to go to school. But we’re all actually saying exactly the same thing.

Q. Does the UK share some or any of the misgivings expressed in parts of the US government about Pakistan’s role in Afghanistan?

A. Historically, there’s a 20-year history, which if we want to go over and look at who’s responsible and made mistakes, I think no country is blameless when you take a hard look in the mirror, including my country. I think at this point we need to focus on the task ahead and the very immediate question of whether there is a functioning state which meets the thresholds I’ve described and which we can work and engage with, and how we stop the alternative, which will be worse for all our interests and certainly worse for Pakistan.

Q. How does the UK see China’s role in the region?

A. So, let me address it very specifically because I’ve said it many times on the record: there’s a very lazy stereotype about CPEC being negative. Total CPEC budget is 62 billion dollars over 15 years? So far, the Chinese ambassador, my friend, will tell you they’ve spent about 25 billion. What is currently driving the Pakistan economy? Remittances — 30 billion dollars a year, against 25 billion over five years. How much did China invest in the UK in 2017 alone? 54 billion — if there’s a country that’s awash with Chinese cash, it’s the UK. So this idea that somehow CPEC is a terrible disaster…

Pakistan needs infrastructure investment, Pakistan needs these projects. If that investment is done in a way that benefits Pakistan, transfers knowledge and skills to Pakistani workers, is sustainable and respects environmental standards, respects local labour laws… if all those conditions are met and the deals are structured in a way that doesn’t saddle Pakistan with debt, why should a country like Britain be threatened by that? It’s not the Great Game. Indeed I would like British companies to be involved in aspects of CPEC.

Q. So I want to ask you a couple of questions about cricket. There was a whole controversy that sucked you in around the New Zealand pullout. New Zealand made a point that they had a security threat which came through the Five Eyes network... Is that true?

A. I have learnt the hard way that cricket is about so much more than sport. We all know it but really… No, no one said where this intelligence came from. Five Eyes is a sharing network, which pools intelligence. But dealing with it is a sovereign matter. So I think that’s where the confusion came from. I’m not confirming or denying whether it was Five Eyes, I’m not allowed to comment publicly on intelligence, I’m simply explaining why people assumed, and the New Zealanders looked at the information they had and took the decision they did. What I have said publicly is, if I had judged a security threat, either on the Friday match that I was supposed to be attending, or to the England game, the first thing I would have had to do, legally, was to change my travel advice. So don’t really worry about the intelligence thing, go look at the website.

Q. A lot of people still believe that the England team visit in the fall of 2022 is still a moot point. Even the PCB chairman Ramiz Raja had initially said that the English team could turn around and pull out at the last minute again. How sure are you that that tour will go ahead?

A. Look, I understand trust has been damaged. So we need to work to rebuild that trust. In their announcement about the withdrawal of the matches in October, the ECB [England Cricket Board] were very clear that they were still committed to travel [next year] and they said that publicly that the big tour of October 2022 was always our prize, that we most wanted, because it’s six weeks and it’s got all formats — Tests, ODIs, T20s — so it’s a massive occasion. So as far as I’m concerned, both sides are still committed, and as an ambassador, I’ve unapologetically stuck my colours to the mast to get cricket back in Pakistan. I’ve worked very hard to get to this point and I’ll carry on working hard to make sure that tour goes ahead next year.

Q. Coming to Pakistani politics, first of all I want to get a sense about this brouhaha with Shehbaz Sharif and the NCA [National Crime Agency]. Can you explain to me how the NCA process works?

A. So I’m going to sidestep most of this. I don’t speak for the NCA, they are an operational police agency. As a matter of deliberate form, I as part of the executive cannot instruct the NCA to investigate or not investigate something. You as a good journalist can ask the NCA the questions but it’s not really in my bailiwick. I know you want me to take you through the process, and if Shehzad Akbar’s right or Shehbaz Sharif’s right, but genuinely, I am not an expert because it’s not my responsibility on the whys and the wherefores of how the NCA runs. So I don’t want to, without having done my research properly, get into commenting… I’m in the same position as you. I’ve got no special insight to offer.

Q. So when something like this happens, you are not intimated at all?

A. There is an underlying point here which I will address head on. Pakistan loves a conspiracy. I mean, you are Pakistanis and why would you not think there is not a story of skullduggery, politics and perfidious Albion. That’s cricket, that’s Red List-ing and that’s these cases. And sadly as a bureaucrat, I’m a believer in a slightly duller version of life, which is a bit more prosaic and it’s not as interesting for your readers. But you know, Turner is not sitting there, pulling strings and playing politics.

And to anticipate your next question, what about Nawaz Sharif? Why is he in London, you must have an agenda… Let me address it. What I have always said in the case of Nawaz, and all other Pakistanis from all political divides who may be in London, we as a country actually will do the dull thing and we will play it completely straight by our immigration rules. Now it’s much easier to assume we are trying to intervene in Pakistani politics but, in this day and age, a country can’t do that. The worst thing for an ambassador like me is to look like I’m picking sides. I talk to everybody, that’s well known, I’m a good ambassador, but we’re not picking sides, we’re not playing games, so on the question of a specific, we say, ‘straight bat’, no googlies, no sweep shots, no funny business, I’m blocking the crease.

Q. And what is the status currently of cases against our other politician, Altaf Hussain?

A. So Altaf Hussain again, the detailed personal status is a matter for him and the British Crown and I’m legally not allowed to comment on it. But it is a matter of public record that there are charges against him pending and he is due to go to trial in the UK. The trial was supposed to happen last May but got deferred because of Covid and I think it’s due to happen in the next six months.

Q. My experience as a journalist of some 30 years, and one who is hugely sceptical of conspiracy theories, is that in Pakistan the truth is usually even more labyrinthine than the weirdest conspiracy theories.

A. [Laughs] But there’s a point there, which actually loops us back to the start of the conversation, about perceptions. Now clearly there are Pakistani perceptions of the UK and there are global perceptions about Pakistan. And one of the reasons we have struggled with the Red List, with the cricket, with the Afghan debate, is because people are playing off a slightly outdated perception of Pakistan. I am not here to be a cheerleader for Pakistan, that’s not my job. I’m here to advance British interests. But if I see issues, where I think it’s not being well explained or understood what Pakistan in 2021 looks like — as opposed to 2012 or 2001 — then I think it’s right that I explain them. And I explain that both privately back to my government, but also, where necessary, publicly.

The writer is Dawn’s Editor Magazines.
He tweets @hyzaidi

Published in Dawn, EOS, November 7th, 2021