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The estimates reported in the 2010 American Community Survey revealed that the median salaried household income of India-born immigrants was around $94,700. In comparison, the median household income of native-born Americans was estimated at $51,750. Unlike the Pakistan-born immigrants in Canada, who lagged behind others in economic prosperity, Pakistanis in America are relatively thriving where the median household income of Pakistan-born immigrants is 18 per cent higher than that of the native-born Americans.
The American Community Survey for 2010 (latest data available from the US Census Bureau) reveal that amongst South Asians living in the US, India-born immigrants are far ahead of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and Afghanis. Even when compared with immigrants from Egypt, a country known for supplying highly educated immigrants to the US, Indians report exceptionally higher indicators of economic progress.
Indian-born immigrants also reported one of the lowest poverty rates at 4 per cent. Afghanistan-born immigrants reported the highest poverty rate where one in five Afghan immigrants was deemed below the poverty line in the US. While Pakistan-born immigrants reported higher median household incomes than the native-born Americans, surprisingly 14 per cent of the Pakistan-born immigrants were below the poverty line compared to only 9.4 per cent of the native-born Americans.
Another indicator of financial distress amongst households in North America is the percentage of household income spent on gross rent. Households spending 30 per cent or more of household income on rent are considered financially distressed. Amongst households who live in rental units, 57 per cent of the immigrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Egypt spent more than 30 per cent of the household income on rent compared to only 24 per cent of immigrants from India.
These poverty statistics raise several questions. For instance, despite having similar South Asian heritage, Pakistan-born immigrants report a 2.4-times higher rate of poverty than their Indian counterparts. Furthermore, poverty among younger cohorts (18 years old or younger) is even worse amongst immigrants from Pakistan than from India. At the same time almost 50 per cent of under-18 Afghan immigrants are reportedly below the poverty line in the US. These statistics necessitate the need to explore the reasons behind disparities amongst immigrants from South Asia.
I am presenting here a socio-economic comparison of South Asians in the US. I have restricted the reporting to immigrants from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Afghanistan. This is done because India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and to some extent Afghanistan have more in common in culture and recent history than other countries in South Asia. I have thrown in Egypt for good measure to serve as a control for immigrants from another Muslim country with a different cultural background.
The purpose of this comparative review is to determine what are the reasons behind the success of India-born immigrants in the US. Could it be that the immigrants from India had luck on their side, or could it be that Indian immigrants possessed the necessary ingredients to succeed in the highly competitive labour market in the United States. More importantly, one needs to explore why immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh lag behind those from India in achieving the same levels of economic success.
Sizing the South Asians:
With approximately 1.8 million individuals, India-born immigrants form the largest cohort amongst South Asians in the US. The American Community Survey (ACS) in 2010 estimated Pakistan-born immigrants at 300,000, Bangladesh-born immigrants at 153,000, and Afghanistan-born immigrants at 60,000. Egypt-born immigrants totalled 133,000. Immigrants from India were approximately five-times the size of Pakistan-born immigrants. The relatively large size of Indian immigrants leads to larger social networks, which help with searching for better employment prospects.
Despite their large size, most India-born immigrants in the US are recent arrivals. Whereas 47 per cent of the India-born immigrants arrived in the US after 2000, only 36 per cent of the Pakistan-born immigrants arrived after 2000. This suggests that the economic success of immigrants from India is driven by the recent arrivals. Relatively speaking, immigrants from Afghanistan have enjoyed the longest tenure in the US of all South Asian countries discussed here. Notice that while 42 per cent of immigrants from Afghanistan arrived in the US before 1980, only 25 per cent of the Indian immigrants accomplished the same.
Pakistanis have larger families:
With 4.3 persons per households, immigrants from Pakistan and Afghanistan reported significantly larger family sizes. In comparison, the native-born population reported a household size of 2.6 persons whereas the size of India-born immigrant households was around 3.5 persons. The difference between immigrants from India and other South Asians is more pronounced when one looks at the per capita earnings. Owing to their smaller household size, immigrants from India reported significantly higher per capita incomes than the rest. For instance, Bangladesh-born immigrants reported 50% less in median per capita income than those from India. And while immigrants from Pakistan reported higher household incomes than the immigrants from Egypt, the larger household size of Pakistan-born immigrants brought their per capita incomes lower than that of Egyptians.
Larger household size results in overcrowding, especially amongst low-income households, who often live in rental units. The average household size of rental households from Pakistan was found to be 33 per cent larger than the same from immigrants from India. Fifteen per cent of households from Pakistan were found to have more than one occupant on average per room compared to only 6 per cent of those from India.
Women in the labour force:
A key source of distinction between the immigrants from India and other South Asians is the higher participation of Indian women in the labour force. A much higher integration of women in the labour force is one of the reasons why immigrants from India have fared much better than others in the United States. Consider that only 42 per cent of the women from Pakistan were active in the labour force in the US compared to 57 per cent women from India. In fact women from Pakistan reportedly the lowest participation in the labour force in the US falling behind women from Egypt, Afghanistan , and Bangladesh.
Education matters the most:
It should come as no surprise that immigrants from India are one of the most educated cohort in the United States. Almost 42 per cent of immigrants from India over the age of 25 reported having a graduate (Masters) or a professional degree. In comparison, only 10 per cent of the native-born adults reported having a graduate or professional degree. Approximately 23 per cent of adult immigrants from Egypt and Pakistan reported having a graduate or professional degree.
The correlation between higher education attainment and higher median household incomes is explicitly presented in the graph below. India-born immigrants with professional degrees also reported significantly higher incomes than the rest. In comparison, immigrants from Afghanistan with one of the lowest incidence of professional degrees reportedly the lowest median household incomes.
The gender divide is again instrumental between immigrants from India and the rest. Whereas 70 per cent of the India-born female adults reported having a Bachelors degree or higher, only 46 per cent of adult females born in Pakistan reported the same in the US. At the same time only 28 per cent of the native-born female adults in the US reported completing university education.
Better education better careers:
The education attainment levels amongst adult immigrants determine, to a large, extent their career choices. University education resulting in professional or graduate degrees allows immigrants to qualify for well-paying jobs in the US. Immigrants from India have been able to use their high-quality education to make inroads in the high-paying employment market. One is therefore hardly surprised to see that of the adult employed population, 70 per cent immigrants from India are working in occupations focusing on management, business, science, and arts. In comparison, only 44 per cent of immigrants from Pakistan ad 33 per cent immigrants from Bangladesh are employed in similar occupations.
What have we learnt:
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
In 1883, Emma Lazarus asked for the tired, the poor, and the wretched refuse. India instead sent its very best to the United States. Instead of the huddled masses, graduates from Indian Institutes of Technology and Management arrived in hundreds of thousands at the American shores. These immigrants were products of a sophisticated higher education system whose foundations were laid by Pandit Nehru in early fifties.
In the rest of South Asia, especially in Pakistan and Bangladesh, education has never been a national priority. The results of such conflicting priorities are obvious. Graduates from Indian universities are outdoing others in competitivelabour markets at home and abroad.
If education is not made a national priority, the gap between Indians and other South Asians will grow at home and in diaspora.
Murtaza Haider, Ph.D. is the Associate Dean of research and graduate programs at the Ted Rogers School of Management at Ryerson University in Toronto. He can be reached by email at murtaza.haider@ryerson.ca
The views expressed by this blogger and in the following reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of the Dawn Media Group.
Murtaza Haider is a professor of Real Estate Management at Ryerson University and a Director of Regionomics Inc. He is also a syndicated columnist with Post Media and writes a weekly column on urban economics in Canada. He is the author of the book Getting Started with Data Science: Making Sense of Data with Analytics.
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Comments (229) Closed
May 23, 2012 08:11pm
Nothing wrong in comparing Iindians and Pakistanis.
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May 23, 2012 10:20am
Nice article.
Have you thought of how social background of upbringing in south asia plays a role?
Also how about confidence levels of young south Asians. Does it come from education
Or upbringing?
Have u researched integration of Asians with the societies here?
Venky
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May 23, 2012 10:22am
Murtaza, your writing made interesting reading.However, your comparison of Indian education system with that of Egypt lacked basic sense, I must say.Having been living in the Middle Easty for almost a decade now with close ties with people from the South Asian as well as Arabian diaspora, I can declare without bating an eyelid that Egypt has one of the poorest academic standards, thanks to their corrupt system of governance.Ask any of your Pakistani brethren living in any of the GCC countries if he or she would prefer to use the services of an Egypt trained medico or any other professional over the one from the Subcon including Srilankans, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis. The answer will be a big no. Best of luck and bless you.
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May 23, 2012 10:51am
One of the reason India has done better than Pakistan is that you visit any big City or even small city of India and you will find thousands of women driving cars, scooters and moped etc. and are working where as in Pakistan even in big cities like Lahore and Rawalpindi where I visited, you hardly find women driving cars and are working. It is the feudalistic mentality in Pakistan where women is a possession of a man meant to produce as many children as possible. Look at Taliban who have nothing better to do than destroying girl's schools. It is the same culture. In secular India, very early in life you learn to get along with people of different religion and background and it helps in America. In Pakistan, it is the same religion you deal with most of the time so your vision becomes very narrow. Plus quite a few Pakistanis I have come across in North America who do not want to own a house as they do not want to pay interest on mortgage as it is un-Islamic so how will you get ahead in life.
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May 23, 2012 11:02am
Excellent article. Modern education of its masses is a must for a country to get respect around the world. Indian subcontinent is a very old civilization and we need to look ourself for the reasons for our backwardness. With the RTE bill being passed in India, the spread of education is likely to spread in the areas where the light of educatio has not reached. I still feel that Indian education system is not very challanging terms of critical thinking except is some of the universities mentioned by the author. The current HRD minister is the type of people India would require for long time to come to realise the dream which more than 1 billion people aspire. I hope the Pakistani friends will read this article and treat it as a mirror for self improvement. Pakistan needs to forget Gen Zia's brand of education...........
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May 23, 2012 11:03am
Excellent piece. Presents is a marked contrast with the data on Canadian Pakistanis. Many thoughts come to mind.
Canada is a welfare state (of sorts). This invariably means more free boarders, higher cost of living (and longer queues for medical treatment!). USA is a far more structurally balanced economy than Canada. There is a more direct relationship between efforts and rewards in the USA than in Canada. Many Pakistanis work hard if they are forced to (as in USA) but turn lazy where there is no stick but lots of carrot (as in Canada).
Pakistan is lagging behind on the education front, and this has a direct bearing on our incomes in free societies.
Socio-religious factors also come into play. We have a larger household on average, and fewer women work in the organized sector.
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May 23, 2012 11:22am
It is a great comparison. But one thing which i want to know and is not discussed here is the data for the Chinese immgirants. It is definitely the case that the education system in India is very good. Another facotr that counts though, and should be used to normalise the data, is the effect of population. Immigrants coming from india and China are the best ones from a population which is roughly 5 times of the pakistani population. Even where the degrees are equivalent to other countries' immigrants, the knowledge/skill sets are definitely better in the Chinese and Indian immigrants. This may or may not be an effect of the compeition they have to face to come abroad. So once the population factor has been used for normaising the data, the picture will be even more clear. A great article overall. Alas the national priorities for Pakistan are not education and enlightenment of the masses. Its precisely the opposite. Works well for the status quo.
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May 23, 2012 11:55am
Higher Education aside, Pakistan is lagging behind in primary and secondary education! Sorry state of affairs, I feel it everyday, when i hardly see a Pakistani professional in my IT projects at large clients during working for last decade or so in UK. There is not much quality issue in terms of education i would say but certainly numbers are not even comparable to Indian counterparts!
Good planning for skilled workforce is nowhere seen in Pakistan and its only limited to middle or upper class in Pakistan. While in India higher education is available for everyone it seems.
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May 23, 2012 12:02pm
What was not highlighted is that Indian origin Americans are the richest ethnic community in America, pushing Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Russians and Germans down the pecking order. Could it be that they are far better educated and work a lot harder ?
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May 23, 2012 12:16pm
Absolutely true. I have observed that generally the India educated people are much better than Pakistan educated. Even if you discount the ZIA and post ZIA era influences, Indian education is much better than Pakistani education. Bangladeshi are more hard working and disciplined but some disadvantages has held them back.
Another, not a trivial issue is comfort with mainstream society. I have noticed that Indian educated,Hindu and Christians more so than Muslims, are much more at ease with the society in general. Pakistani educated seem to have some Burdon that prevents them with this comfort with society. The unnecessary fear, caution, and possibly other negative feelings towards majority society and influential group is added and unnecessary burden that most Pakistani educated people are carrying on their shoulders.
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May 23, 2012 08:07pm
That's baloney. More Indians and Bengali students are able to get visas to come to US and then settle here, so you see more of those communities doing well and wrongly assume Pakistanis are left behind. The Pakistani immigrants I have known vast majority work hard and struggle to succeed.
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May 23, 2012 12:33pm
It's about household income not individuals income, indian ladies tend to work while Pakistani ladies like to rest at home, which household would have more income ? it's no brainer
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May 23, 2012 12:36pm
This is a very old problem in the sub-continent. I don't want to introduce a religious angle, but generally Hindus took quicker to reforms and education even during British rule. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan tried his best to motivate Muslims to adopt to modern education, with some success. However for some reason not only in the sub-continent but also in the US & UK Indians have done far better as compared to their compatriots from Bangladesh & Pakistan. On a side note Indian Hindus have done better then Indian Muslims educationally and economically. Just blaming Zia for everything may not be the answer. One needs to look deeper for real reasons.
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May 23, 2012 12:38pm
Ponder. Period
We seriously need to overhaul our education priorities. I'm sure our HEC is spending less in comparison % to what India is spending on its IIT programs. Not that it is specially in comparison to India but for the future growth of indigenous society. Healthy and educated society is a prosperous society.
I must thank the author here for highlighting the issue through e-print media that needs to be pasted out in the next APC outside parliament house. But again will the matric or FA pass MPs/MNAs suffice the comprehension of this article? :P
Usman
Lahore, PK
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May 23, 2012 12:46pm
One thing that Indians in large parts of the country (not in all parts - but definitely in increasingly more parts of India) agree about, is the need to educate their children as a way of equipping the children to chart a better future than their parents.
From personal experience of running a factory I know that even our least paid workers spend a large portion of their incomes in educating their children - preferring the so called "English Medium" schools over the government run schools where the medium of instruction is in the vernacular. (A flip side is of course the significant numbers of "colleges" with dubious academic resources, but the free market nature of the professional college "market" tends to weed out the really atrocious colleges over time. Another flip side is high "capitation" fee charged by some of the colleges which are in demand).
In comparison with what I read about the Pakistani curriculum, I feel that the by-and-large secular curriculum in India, specially during the formative years of primary, secondary and high school education, allows students to leave school without a misplaced sense of religio/racial superiority or sense of intolerance towards certain others, and other such mental baggage which has no practical use in most of today's careers.
The Indian education systems are far from perfect. They can end up putting unbearable pressure on children to perform. They often encourage rote learning (though attempts have now started to tackle this). But despite this the systems are able to preserve most children's natural sense of inquiry and curiosity to a large extent, and at do not burden them with unneeded baggage about superiority and inferiority.
Kids in Pakistan and in India, are equally talented and gifted when they enter school. I agree with kayenn's point above, that Pakistanis need to introspect and define whether they want their education system to produce students who can compete and contribute with a clear head in a modern interdependent, increasingly globalised economy, or kids who start with the handicap of a distorted perspective about themselves and the rest of the world, a possibly distorted idea of their place in the world's scheme of things, and with the possibility that their sense of inquiry has been dulled by the idea of a single "true" narrative without understanding that truth itself can be a grey concept. I think it is a burden that society would do well not to encumber its children with.
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May 23, 2012 01:14pm
I disagree, I'm a Pakistani-American, and most of the Pakistanis here in America are doing very well professionally, there are many Pakistani-American Doctors,Bankers,IT professionals,educators and entrepreneurs,such as Shahid Khan who owns NFL team Jacksonville Jaguars.
There's a difference between Pakistani-Americans and Pakistani-Canadians, Pakistani-American have been established, Pakistani-Americans have one of the highest median incomes around $70,000, much higher than the national median income in America.
There are only about 500,000 Pakistanis in America, compare that to 2 million Indians or 3.8 million Chinese,1.6 million Japanese,1.7 million Koreans,3.4 million Filipinos in America.
Most Pakistani people in America do very well academically in high school and they go to some of the best colleges in America.
I can't speak for Pakistani-Canadians and British Pakistanis though.
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May 23, 2012 01:39pm
Same story is true in UK. Where pakistani and bangladeshi's have the largest numbers of people om welfare. Pakistanis also have the honor of having the largest numbers jailed when compared as percentage of total pakistani population. Also, indians hindus,sikhs and even muslim seem to do better in education and income compared to thee native-white and other immigrant population. Since both the indians and pakistanis both migrated to their former colonial master, britan, starting after 1947, how can you explain the discrepancy in the success of indians and pakistani/bangadeshi in general. As a side note most of the "Indian curry house" (80%) as run by bangladeshis, go figure.
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May 23, 2012 01:44pm
I think, the Indian government allocated more resources on higher learning relative to primary education, than China. This lead to China having a much higher literacy rate than India. So we have teeming millions of uneducated masses in India, while a few lucky ones get cheap higher education and fly out to the developed nations. The presence of this prosperous Indian diaspora, who were trained in India with its limited resources is hardly beneficial to India. If the government had spent resources on primary education rather than providing a selected few a visa abroad through higher education, India would have been a much better place.
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May 23, 2012 02:34pm
Rather an interesting article, but the facts were very well known to most Indians, especially living in the US. It is amazing to see the brilliance with which Indian women shine in the US - go to any conference, any seminar, any research facility, and you will see quite a few Indian Americans participating, contributing, collaborating. I have known, met and interacted with hundreds of competent women, quite a few from S. Asia. They are quite an asset, both in the house and outside in the larger world.
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May 23, 2012 02:46pm
it doesn't mention that six indian families live in one house or apartment that brings down their rental / living cost. Also they put their women to work as well (under the table money) even in instances when they come here on H-1B. I don't think education has anything to do with it. US in recent times has had a more favorable visa policy towards India as compared to Pakistan. In case of Pakistan most of the immigration is Family Sponsored requiring no specific skill sets. Which leads to getting a mixed bag of immigrants.
But thanks to DAWN for providing an opportunity AGAIN for Pakistan bashers to take jabs at us.
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May 23, 2012 02:56pm
High levels of education (and income, etc.) among Indians (in USA) is simply because most graduates from the best of science and technology institutes in India prefer USA as their destination for further studies or work. US does have very good universities, a familiar language (English) and multicultural society.
If you take the data from the countries such as Australia, Indian -born immigrants would fare badly on almost all indicators. Reason is simple: mostly the academically-poor or PR hungry students head to Ozland. Good ones to US.
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May 23, 2012 03:44pm
Excellent articles with incisive research and conclusions!
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May 23, 2012 04:13pm
A similar survey was carried out in the UK some time ago and they got similar results regarding the disparities between UK citizens of Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi origins; actually closer to the Canadian pattern.
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May 23, 2012 04:35pm
It is an interesting comparison of South Asian groups in the United States. Overall, the trend may appear to be correct, the numbers may not be with large standard deviations common of American Community Survey data (ACS) when used to analyze small groups. The Asian American Advisory Committee at the Census Bureau has been urging the Bureau to over sample Asian groups so that we can benefit from the ACS. Of course, the Census Bureau ignored all along this request. At India Network Foundation, through its sponsored health Insurance program for visiting parents, we see a large number of elderly from South Asia are also traveling to the United States and this yet another indication, the South Asian community in general is doing well. See Foundation web site at http://www.indianetwork.org for latest 2010 US Census Data on Asian Americans. The Census Data is much more reliable than ACS.
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May 23, 2012 04:41pm
It's similar situation in Australia as well. I don't know any Pakistani family where both husband and wife are working. In most of the cases unlike Indian families, only husbands go to work which obviously affect the house average income. Main problem with Pakistanis is that they are reluctant to accept the culture many of them don't try to adjust here permanently as they think they will go back after sometime, although it rarely happens that they actually go back. They remain in dilemma like situation. They do not try to their maximum level in order to strengthen themselves financially and socially. Pakistanis also don't intermingle with local people, unlike their counterparts from India, due to their religious and cultural obligations. It cost them in terms of personal relations which is essential to get into good jobs. I think we will have to decide what we have to do, accept a new society or reject it, in order succeed otherwise we will be lagging behind.
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May 23, 2012 04:48pm
Very true. Look at the list of top 500 world universities : http://www.online-universities.us/top500universit...
None of them is from Pakistan whereas there are 3 Universities from India. Indians are leading their ways in IT, business ,management and natural sciences. In fact, among other reasons, the key success behind the rapid growth of Indian in Western markets is due to the fact that American and Europeans are relatively poor in mathematics, engineering and accounting subjects.
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May 23, 2012 04:52pm
If I was a Pakistani decision-maker I will be worried not because of the plight of educated Pakistanis' abroad but of educated Pakistanis that are in its armed services. The graduates of the same schools are also recruited in technical services of the forces. How many Zia influenced educated people are in its forces?
In India there is a lot of room for improvement in education but the best and the brightest prefer to go abroad, private sector and may be then its armed forces.
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May 23, 2012 04:58pm
As nice as it is to hear good stuff about Indians, we as a nation should realize that people in the US most probably come from the top layer of our society. India has a long way to go before the success Indian Americans have gained becomes possible for each and every Indian. While the government seems to be making the right moves, we can't trust them to do their job well. If each and every middle class Indian takes responsibility for educating one child of their servant, we can make an impact on the growth of our nation. It is time middle class India takes a bigger role in our nation building.
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May 23, 2012 04:59pm
that s why the author took Median instead of mean salary. Secondly, the author mentioned that the percentage of those Indian residing pre 1980s is very small. This also implies that the main contributors from Indian Diaspora to US are indeed new comers entering into the market after 2000 .
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May 23, 2012 05:19pm
An additional factor probably not included is that a significant number of people from all the listed countries except India come thro the lottery system for Green card, which means even those who do not have the education make while that option isn't there for Indians. Probably higher percentage family based immigration than Indians with similar effects. Its basically a question of what kind of educational filters are in place for each country, is one of the main reasons for the difference.
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May 23, 2012 05:25pm
Hit it on the spot!_Narrowing it down to the quality of education, also remember that most Indian arrivals to the US come with a graduate degree, the medium of instruction in India is English, and also that people from India are less emotional and more cool-headed compared to people from other parts of the Indian subcontinent._In Bangladesh and Pakistan, while the quality of education was on a par with that in India until the early 70s, the quality of education, especially public education, has declined. Moreover, reading comprehension and writing skills are on average not well-developed if you have graduated from Pakistan or Bangladesh
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May 23, 2012 05:41pm
The 46 percent of Pakistani born women reporting a bachelors degree may be misleading. In Pakistan you get a bachelors degree two years after high school. I suspect that a large percentage of this 46% is a two year bachelor i.e. an associates degree. I have many Pakistani female friends here who have a 'bachelors' from Pakistan but find it difficult to get work here as the degree is not a bachelors by US standars.
Also, the standard of education in Pakistan is very poor as well. Apart from a few institutions, most churn out graduates who are not able to think critically or made decisions on their own - traits that are very important in the US, in my opinion.
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May 23, 2012 05:47pm
Some amazing Stats about indian in USA
36 % of NASA scinetist
38 % of total doctors in US
34 % of Microsoft employee
28 % of IBM Employee
17% of Intel and 13 % of Xerox emloyee's are Indians. Though it s a loss to India but still they are helping the India to grow by creating good reputation and we in India get benefitted as work comes to us.
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May 23, 2012 05:52pm
excellent article.the reason indian household income is higher is because most of the women work as compared to pakistani women.pakistani opinion
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May 23, 2012 05:54pm
Nice research. Many of my classmates have made USA their home and i am aware what a braindrain this is for India. But its a cruel joke that education is top priority in India. It could be rather that, our culture, especially Hindu culture, places a large significance on wisdom and knowledge, why we even have a goddess of learning Saraswathi. You have to be born an Indian to understand this perspective. But of late, something is being done in the education arena in India, bringing basic education to the poorest among the poor. RTE (right to education) Act is now passed making primary education mandatory for all children and reserving about 25% of seats in creamy institutions for children from families under BPL (below poverty line). How far this will translate into success actually needs to seen after a decent period of time. India could be comparitively doing better than Pakistan and Bangladesh, but there is a lot, lot left to be done. In the middle-eastern school, one comes across Indian children faring better than most other asian children, especially arabs. For this, one can only blame our genes. Do not forget that even 2000-3000 years back, India had the 'Gurukul' system that placed such a high importance on something like hostel education. Indian culture says, 'Matha, Pitha, Guru, Daivam' must be the order of life - which means, mother comes first, father next, the Guru or your teacher comes third and God has to come into your life at last. This is the religious idealogy we are fed upon from our KG classes.
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May 23, 2012 05:59pm
Excellent article on a very rare topic - it is true that Pakistanis do not attach sufficient importance to education. And to add to this wonderful analysis, it is also important to note that good education is not limited to university education and professional qualifications. Vocational training is also extremely vital. Germany is an excellent example of a society which is still going strong while the other western countries are generally stuck in a very long recession. Unfortunately, in spite of Indians' achievements in the US , India (and Pakistan and the rest) are impoverished societies reflecting lack of proper education and a system where opportunity is provided to any who is willing to put in the effort.
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May 23, 2012 06:19pm
A good article. One of the other thing that is being pointed in the comparison is Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan are all pre-dominantly muslims. From the outset Muslims were a ruling class lost out to European in this region and western education was rejected by the spiraly going down class, during occupation. Lack of emphasis on education after the creatiion of these countries continued. The results are apparent. I also agree with another blogger that relegiously Muslims have tiough time assimilating in the west compare to pre-dominantly Hindu India population. They have always adapted being invaded by so many occupiers.. __Going to school in USA I noticed that foreign students attending graduate studies were mostly Hindu Indians the representation for muslims were not propotional. Hence the result would even get worse if statistics are done for Indians only of which 20-25% population are muslims. __But root of the problem is apparent 6 billion muslims can not assert the propotional level of economical and political clout in the world affairs.
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May 23, 2012 06:27pm
It is the education system and pluralistic society of India that provides the fuel to indian immigrants to succeed in free market based economies. Small families is another reason. Pakistanis often challenge India on secularism, however, no matter how imperfect India's secularism or democracy might be, it has changed the outlook of young indians towards life and in the right direction.
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May 23, 2012 06:43pm
The major reason is the fact that India is both secular as well as democratic, however flawed it may be in the eyes of the West. Also, Dr. Manmohan Singh's foresight in removing the archaic government barriers on businesses is another major reason, resulting in an increased move towards capitalism, desi style. There is no reason why other South Asian countries cannot emulate the Indian success, as we share the same DNA.
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May 23, 2012 06:58pm
Nice analysis though I wonder who paid for this research. This endless comparison between Indians and Pakistanis should stop. So what if Indians make more money.
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May 23, 2012 07:49pm
Per capita calculation is interesting. You would think larger households would mean more people working, and higher per capital, if the larger household has younger members currently who are not earning, it may mean they would earn in future and their per capita would rise? No ;
Also comparing with Egypt may not help because of their low numbers here. A better comparison could be with Indian Muslims in USA.
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May 23, 2012 08:05pm
Majority of Pakistani immigrants work hard and gain a foothold in the US after quite a struggle. You will certainly find quite a few with tricky immigration records and some engaged in fnancial fraud but that is about the extent of illegal acts. Pakistani-Americans work in white collar jobs or run their own businesses like gas station, motel or grocery store.
Overall I would say Pakistani-American community is in pretty good shape.
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May 23, 2012 08:07pm
Good article with facts and figures.
In the IT industry Indians are in key positions and it is not a wonder if you try to hire 60-70% or resumes you get are from Indians.
Educated American know more about India than many other nations. During official lunch & dinner you will be asked many questions on Indian culture and the education system.
That's the well wish Indians created here thanks to the Superb Universites back home.
Pakistan should imitate this.
Please see the NCERT textbooks url and see textbooks and you can see the reason of Indian's success abroad
http://ncert.nic.in/NCERTS/textbook/textbook.htm
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May 23, 2012 08:27pm
I am not sure if we can use household income as a surrogate for prosperisty/success.
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May 23, 2012 09:12pm
Only 3 lakh Pakistanis? this survey significantly under-represents the number of Pakistanis. These numbers are primarily taken from people self-reporting. Whereas Indians like to wear their brand on their sleives, many Pakistanis hide their identity. Certainly a large no of Pakistani origin people would not tell govt in a voluntary survey that they are from Pakistan. Therefore, the results most likely are inaccurate.
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May 23, 2012 09:13pm
This is quite a flawed analysis. It does not control for the level of discrimination that Pakistani immigrants face, which tends to be much much higher than any faced by Indians. Indians are able to quickly collaborate with Americans. Also India is the bigger market, so Indians are given jobs more easily by American company. A beard-keeping good Muslim man or a purdah-observing Muslim woman from Pakistan is deliberately sidelined.
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May 23, 2012 09:45pm
Even Chinese lag behind on the overall numbers behind Indians. Google for stats.
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May 23, 2012 09:58pm
"The relatively large size of Indian immigrants leads to larger social networks, which help with searching for better employment prospects."
This statement is correct only in a very limited way. While a family relative may find employment in a small business (convenience store, motel) by use of family connection, most Indians in high-tech or high-qualification jobs do not benefit from this. Highly qualified persons such as doctors, engineers, corporate executives do not get where they are due to connections. They have to prove their mettle since the US is very much a meritocracy.
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May 23, 2012 10:02pm
If he can do it then I can do it too attitude has helped Indians do better at work & business in US. I have headed few business/professional organizations in US and have always worked to bring forward successful examples - to help individuals visualize their path to success. Most Indians have a flair for Entrepreneurship and US is a very rewarding place for those who take risks.
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May 23, 2012 11:02pm
Well I do not question the disparity in the quality of education between Pakistan and India, what I have noticed is that Indian are very career oriented and they are too much focussed on work. there is no work life balance. Family comes second to work. I have seen many career oriented Indians who send their babies back to India so that mother's can continue on with their career. Pakistanis have different orientation. Family comes first and for mothers their children take precedence over career.
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May 23, 2012 11:18pm
You don't want to change. You don't want to assimilate. How then can you progress? Why did you come here? Did you think we all want to become like you? You are doing us a favor by coming here?
While it does NOT apply to all Pakistanis or all Muslims but to most
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May 23, 2012 11:22pm
Well done Murtaza. You are adding significantly to an informed debate about important issues affecting the Indian Subcontinent. As an Indian I wish to point out that, one other important reason for very high education levels amongst Indians is that recent arrivals(post 2000) are mainly Computer Techies, who invariably come from the Southern States of India, which has the highest literacy. If you see the Computer Software sector and Bio technology, most of this is in Bangalore and Chennai, which is where the Indian professionals come from. Indians also have an advantage through the IITs and IIMs, which were modelled on Western Ivy League Schools and hence better accepted. India is focusing on economic growth, for which education has been given a priority. Your summation is bang on!
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May 23, 2012 11:53pm
The report (and the author of this article) fail to take into consideration, the religion factor. Many Muslims refrain from businesses involving interest, alcohol, non-halal, and gambling. Hindus have no such restraints.
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May 24, 2012 12:19am
Excellent! For his unbiased analysis, it is always an intellectual treat to read Dr. Murtaza Haider. I did not though much relish the ever-present hyphenation of India-Pakistan and / or Hindu-Muslim. I know at first hand that a Pakistan born young person is not different in any respect than his / her Indian counterpart. The trouble lies with Pakistan herself - and it is quite puzzling to me as to why the Pakistani people do not remedy it!
TAKE RELIGION BACK INSIDE THE THRESHOLD OF HOME.
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May 24, 2012 10:12am
where did you disagree?
the writer nowhere said that pakistanis are living on handouts. he just compared them with indians to show that their income is lesser than them.
can you give any figure supporting the converse to be true?
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May 24, 2012 12:52am
Oooow. Now I deem myself wiser. What an informative article. All us were dying to get this information. Now I can die peacefully.
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May 24, 2012 01:05am
I forgot to ask what how the statistic of, under 18 and under the poverty line, is worked out ? I pressed the submit button too early.
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May 24, 2012 01:16am
You are right about that. When compared to Bangladesh and Afghanistan, Pakistanis seem to be doing better, that is a more valid comparison as the other two nations are Islamic too.
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May 24, 2012 01:18am
You forgot the cab drivers buddy, large number of Pakistanis are cab drivers.
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May 24, 2012 01:19am
good article backed by good data, except that I do not agree that Indians help each other get jobs - this happens but not so much that it would influence an entire community's riches. It is a rat race here.
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May 24, 2012 02:04am
Most of pakistanis lives of food stamps and social insurance..dont care about education ..dont pay taxes and lives in ghettos ..other hand Indians lives in expensive houses mostly paid off and enjoy amrican life ..there are 100 of indians in hollywood, ibm , auto industry , own hotels , gas stations many more while Pakistanis mostly doing labour jobs
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May 24, 2012 02:57am
It is sad that pakistani are lagging behind. They have a false sense that they are the best. Unless we have education we have nothing. In 1638 Shah Jehan started building the Taj Mahal and in the same time the foundation of Harvard University was laid. Look at the affect of Taj Mahal which bankrupted the Moghal empire and Harvard. Education is not a high priority.
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May 24, 2012 03:04am
On a serious note:
Though "greed" sounds like a bad feeling; it can be effectively channeled for motivating. In this case by comparing with your so called "arch rival"
On a lighter note about the scenario of Pakistan so far:
Once upon a time 60 yrs back a Pakistani general prayed "Allah, please grant me a wish" .. God said "Ok I'll grant you one, but one condition. Whatever you wish will be granted to you,but TWICE will be given to India". The general got so annoyed about the condition that he asked "Ok I WISH India to bleed with thousand wounds" ... "Ok granted.. you'll bleed with 500 wounds". The winner is ....... surprise ... surprise... China. The looser? Pak & India.
Pakistani's have to look at other neighbors like Moritious that gains to the tune of $100 billion due to "Double taxation avoiding" treaty and so on. Which country is wise?
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May 24, 2012 03:07am
so, if u make more money, it means that u can afford a healthy lifestyle, great education for your kids, good health care for the family, safe and secure environment and surrounding....this is why everyone in the world works......
endless comparison?....don't the Pakistanis love comparisons when it comes to nuclear bombs or missiles? many in Pakistan are celebrated just because they the compare Pakistan with India and they often succeed in convincing the people that they are much better ....so, when for the first a really good comparison is made that really matters and reflects the development of the country ,these comparisons have become senseless and paranoid
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May 24, 2012 03:29am
despite having similar South Asian heritage, Pakistan-born immigrants report a 2.4-times higher rate of poverty than their Indian counterparts...what a joke!
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May 24, 2012 03:44am
Grapes are sour.
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May 24, 2012 04:00am
I am a 62 years old Indian and 30 years ago was Chief Engineer on a merchant ship the owners of which were Pakistani. I was the only Indian on board and everybody else was Pakistani but we had a wonderful relationship. However, while they were all likeable, hardworking and well meaning guys, they were not smart workers - merely because they had not been taught. The Captain was from one of Karachi's elite schools and told me that apart from schools liike his, the others were hopelessly inadequate. I think the situation has not changed in all these years. While iin India it has.- 90 % of the kiids who get into our best Universities are from small towns and from low profile, little known schools. I was happy to read that a farmers son made it to the IIT this year and a nurse from a village in Kerala topped the IAS exam. Much more needs to be done in India though but atleast we are on the right track. The key to a better life is good education.
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May 24, 2012 04:05am
Another well written, objective, analytical article by this learned author. Thanks
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May 24, 2012 04:10am
Grow up and stop the hatred. The education and income are two imp factors to determine the standard of living and positive contribution to the society. I am not an Indian but happy for them and would try my best to compete with them and be the best I can be. Hard work pays off in the US.
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May 24, 2012 04:31am
I love this guy he is only truth ..all comes from heart ..lots of paks will be against ur honest analysation but you be strong... Truth prevails
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May 24, 2012 04:34am
A matriculate from Bombay is far more intelligent then MBA from Pakistan. I have seen MBA's who can not draft a single letter and approach for help. I see this everyday in practical life. they ask how come you can draft any type of letter instantly and know what is in our mind that you write for us ?
Pakistanis in general are very very poor in real terms of education. They are sent to schools/colleges so that with their degrees they can get the jobs. this is not the ultimate aim of educating masses. Here no body cares to read anything apart from prescribed text books. there is no such thing as reading habit. they love to watch Porno and rape and kidnap for ransom or worst they know how to block highways and burn tires and protest by damaging all public assets mostly public transport that takes them to their jobs on a daily basis. unfortunately in 65 years of its existence, it has not developed any sensible public transport system. No local railway(Metro) and govt is least bothered how people reach their destinations. There is no BEST or Metro in Pakistan having a population of 180 million souls. generals drive BMW's and Prime Minister and sycophants in their Bullet proof Benz with convoy of at least 20 bodyguards even then a Governor is killed/murdered in broad day light in a posh sector of Islamabad and next day everyone just forgets and like is back to normal. Minorities Minister is murdered and all accused set free. Every household irrespective of their earning capacity has at least a dozen kids who are then left at Madrasas to become militants. This is the state of affairs, In the past ten years of Musharaf regime there was no written agreement with US on how Pak will provide all the facilities including airbase to operate drone attacks to kill its own population .It was a one man show and no resistance. He did what he liked after having Black label. this is how he ran the affairs of the State for 10 years single highhandedly and today we are justly labelled rogue state.
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May 24, 2012 05:23am
Sorry to say, but Pakistani Media is also comparing the same in their talk shows if any Aman ki Asha type program followed by Pakistan Media. Pakistani Channels showing Bollywood Movies & Dramas and compared them with their Movies & Dramas on different channels. If they do like this, so you also need to compare yourself with Indian Education which is much more higher then Pakistan. And also need to improve from hereafter which may get Pakistanis more respect not only in USA but also in rest of the world.
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May 24, 2012 05:24am
It is not appropriate to keep comparing people of Pakistani and Indian origin. Pakistan is after all an Islamic Republic and must be compared to like countries such as Afghanistan, Bangladesh and perhaps Turkey. As the author notes, people from countries where Islam dominates may not allow women to work, and that alone may account for the differences. Post 9/11, they may face discrimination at a similar level. Indians may not face the same discrimination. If data is available, Indian Muslims could be compared, but then again, they are not from a Muslim majority state and the comparison may not be fair.
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May 24, 2012 05:44am
I agree with the writer but the only thing that keeps us apart is the standard of education. In Pakistan if you want good standards then you need to be rich whereas the standards in Indian schools are the same for everyone.
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May 24, 2012 05:50am
Dear Haider,
I agree that many Indians are in better positions.
But again you have to see how many of these Indians are from
which part of India and also to what "caste" they belong.
Same thing for Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Egypt.
If you happen to do a small survey , the data may throw some surprises.
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May 24, 2012 05:57am
Informative article and eye opener for all Pakistanis. Good match up of Pakistan with other Asian countries. However, I think the comparison of Asian with Egyptians is not effective. I would be happy if more article would do comparison of desis living in different developed countries like Australia, Canada, USA, UK etc.
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May 24, 2012 06:09am
Mr. Irfan, the author is not telling that Indians are making more money and rather he is trying to put the message -
' We need to have quality education in our country' in your brain.
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May 24, 2012 06:27am
Mukhtar,
OH My God " You are Dragging ISLAM HERE TOO" Unless and Until Pakistani's stop this DRAGGING OF ISLAM in all and Sundry Pakistan wil be going downwards always.
My friend Leave and Make Religion ONE's Personal Choice and Then SEE how Pakistan develops.
Also remember India Has More Muslims than Pakistan's total Population??
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May 24, 2012 06:57am
@/Usman
Last setence: add Forged
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May 24, 2012 06:57am
Care to quote your source. Did you copy that from some e-mail which also had some other fantastic claims about how great Indians are?
If Indians were really as smart as you want everyone to believe, they would be able to create a country from which you do not need to migrate.
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May 24, 2012 07:00am
totally wrong.
Here in India, if you need good education, you have to go to private schools and many people are
doing spending a fortune. I am the best example.
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May 24, 2012 07:30am
very misleading statistics have you plucked them out of thin air
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May 24, 2012 07:42am
So you bring caste even here.
No discussion can be concluded without it RIGHT????
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May 24, 2012 07:46am
I disagree with the author's contention that India, Pakistan and Bangladesh have a similar recent history and culture. This is a sweeping generalization and an inaccurate one. India is a multicultural, multireligious democracy which has largely had a stable growth path based on a secular and democratic political system and even the education system is secular. In Pakistan all that has not existed for a long time and Bangladesh has always been in a flux.
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May 24, 2012 07:53am
i agree with Abbas, there is a conspiracy probably of denying visas that does this, otherwise, Pakistaniis would have been better depicted. The Indians have manipulated the US visa system as usual against pakistanis.
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May 24, 2012 07:55am
Indian business that has enriched them the most in US is in IT, or management roles in large MNC's. This argument about Hu=indu religious books is flawed and rather reeks of one upmanship based on religion.
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May 24, 2012 08:00am
was this diatribe really relevant to an article on relative education levels correlation with relative economic indicators of migrant groups? Or was it a rant of this gentleman's acutely felt biases?
Second, we all know the issues that face India or Pakistan, or most of S Asia. It is not important to examine and satirise the past. Bloggers who suggest solutions to fix issues in the future will be more helpful.
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May 24, 2012 08:01am
double standard of education is the main reason behind the destruction of education
system in pak.one is private and the other one is public,which is prevail all over the country.and other reason is that in pak just 2% amount of budget is spending on education
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May 24, 2012 08:04am
yup, those Indians and their ilkthe jews do demenaing stuff to get hiher median salaries, while the pure Muslims don't.
By the way, have you read up statistics on drinking habits of Muslims in the USA? Or their %ages in AA (that's Alcoholics Anonymous for you)? You may not want to go there as it may disabuse your views, sad to say.
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May 24, 2012 08:05am
I agree, in fact the purdah observing Muslim woman gets NO jobs in an Islamic country, though many do get some jobs in the US.
Bad, bad US.
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May 24, 2012 08:11am
Buddy, I am from India and can only partly agree. There are educated duds here too and nothing to be ashamed of. What you mention are basic communication skills as well as social interaction skills. Like they say the World is not just about individuals with IQ, EQ (emotional quotient) plays a very important role in leading a balanced life.
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May 24, 2012 08:12am
Naeem, i liked the comparison of Shah Jehan's Taj Mahal and Harvard....just a gentle reminder though that Taj Mahal is in India and may not be the best metaphor for a Pakistani's lament. It may get you in trouble. It is an Indian monument made by one of the great dynasties in the Indian subcontinent - Mughals, like many more such dynasties which made wonderful architecture you shall be unaware of as I understand you do not read anything beyond the Mughals in your history as relevant ;-). Please do and stop beating up the Mughals with your worries ! They were a great dynasty too, like the Mauryas, the Kushana, the many Rajput ones, marathas, and historic ones .... all are celebrated as good positive examples in India.
And, they all evoke pride in us even today in our shared history, no regrets.
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May 24, 2012 08:31am
Why don't you restrict the comparison of Pakistan with countries of similar traits as Sudan, Maldives, Afghanistan, Algeria, Morocco, Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Sierra Leone.
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May 24, 2012 08:33am
Not to mention, politics, there are 2 governors of indian origin namely Bobby Jindal representing Lousiana and Nikki Haley representing North Carolina and nearly 6 indivisuals working in President Obama's cabinet as junior ministers. Also other areas where Indians over take pakistanis and other southasians, is the Fine arts like mainstreem movies and adult movie stars.
Rgds
Pr
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May 24, 2012 08:51am
I agree with you Sree.
But the deterioration in the Pakistani educational system over the years has been "phenomenal". Vast majority of the people who graduate from our universities now have poor "real" understanding of their subjects. The emphasis is on memorising/roting the theoretical aspects, with no attention given to the practical applications.
There is also the malaise of automatically expecting a well-paying job after graduation, that too mostly in subjects with little direct relevance to industry/commercial organisations. Also the market is flooded with graduates in same/similar courses.
The overall "skills-set" of our graduates is poor. However, we do have some great institutions as well , sadly these are few in number.
There is a crucial need to declare an "educational emergency".
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May 24, 2012 08:52am
Stop justifying for your pakistani brrrottthhhhers...turkey, malaysia, indonesia are enough examples....i am aghast at the mere suggestion that the country is an islamic republic so it shud have a lower standard or scope of learning and its people should earn less and suffer from disparities. It is for pakis to stop comparing themselves to us (we are least bothered nyways)...as far indian muslims are concerned, comparisons shud always be done country wise and not religion based. I am sure if the government is secular and does community work, then that wud benefit all - a road or a bridge wud be used by all communities, not just the majority. Next u will say compare only east asians coz they have certain eating habits which give more protein and energy...pathetic.
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May 24, 2012 08:56am
so pakistanis shud stay at home only...this wud help reduce such comparisons..let the beards and purdas be left to immigrants from the arab world only.
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May 24, 2012 08:59am
Dear Mr Mitha,
Your harsh criticism of Pakistan does unfortunately have some reality to it. However, all is not so rosy in our neighbouring country i.e. India. The logo of "India Shining" is at best a logo at present ...... though I really admire the progress that they are making towards achieving this.
As a wise man put it .... "Pakistanis are in a hole looking down at their feet, Indians are also in a hole but looking up towards the stars". This is what will make the ultimate difference.
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May 24, 2012 09:01am
Have you check the birth rates?
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May 24, 2012 09:04am
I think pak and bangladesh being smaller countries shud have developed faster, at least pakistan shud have...depite that u dont have the pace of deve that a giant country like india has...u missed the bus hence dont whine...catch it soon...
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May 24, 2012 09:05am
I have read all comments & of course the article. comparing India with Pakistan , Bangladesh , Afghanistan & Egypt is bit unfair. India should should be at least should be compare with other east Asian countries, if not with China.
It is true that that the education system in India is fairly well it had inherited very good education system from British .In fact Indian Renascence started from Bengal, precisely Indian part of West Bengal. All Indian reformist, right from Raja Ram Mohan Roy to Iswar Chandra Vidasagar, Swami Vikekanand to Rabindranath Tagore, all had given very importance to modern education. The system inherited, had been taken forward by the visionaries, likes of Nehru & others. In other hand Pakistan (with Bangladesh) were busy how to compete & inflict India. Their Generals , Mullahs never thought of higher education for the masses.
The three main factor worked for the batter standing for Indians are:
1. Education 2. Pluralistic society 3. Less leaning towards religion.
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May 24, 2012 09:09am
The Mughal story is to show that education was not very important for the Mughals. No institution of higher learning was open during the 200 or so years of Mughal rule.
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May 24, 2012 09:17am
The above article does not question Pakistani work ethic. It questions lack of superior education, bigger families, and lack of women participation in workforce as causes that is keeping Pakistanis and Banladeshis from achieving their potential. Having lived in US for 22 years as former Pakistani and seeing it for myself the wave of highly educated indians coming to US in the last 15 years and integrating very well in the professional US community, I can attest to the validity of the points that this columnist raised.
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May 24, 2012 09:27am
How many matricule from Bombay and MBA from Pakistan do you know that is the basis of your statement sir? I will ignore rest of your gibberish.
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May 24, 2012 09:42am
Try to Google it.
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May 24, 2012 10:00am
there is not much difference here in india as well. since most of us are getting jobs, so we actually do not care about future. should a recession come, the indian talent will be exposed, to be hollow from inside as well as outside.
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May 24, 2012 10:15am
ok, if caste is brought then how should it change the analysis?
or do you suggest that the incidence of poverty among lower caste indians in america are higher than india?
and even if it does, should american govt. introduce a reservation for them?
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May 24, 2012 10:15am
"Many Muslims refrain from businesses involving interest, alcohol, non-halal, and gambling".
As per the survey they also seem to have refrain from 'education'.
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May 24, 2012 10:21am
To do the ABOVE Described Business you Don't Need A MBA or you don't need to be a Graduate. You have to be Just a CON Man, Pro Bono Pakistani
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May 24, 2012 10:29am
" it had inherited very good education system from British"
Not true AT ALL. Literacy among Indians in 1951 was only 11%. Majority of the top colleges, institutes (IITs, NITs, IIMs), CSIR national labs and other research institutes were established in 1950s and later. Second crop of IITs, IISERs, IIMs has come in last 4-5 years only.
Private sector has played an important role in last decade or so. 100s of engineering colleges have come up in each and every states. Resulted competition among these colleges have improved the engineers quality (and quantity) significantly.
More importantly, improved economic has poured ridiculous amount of money in research. It is much easier to establish a well-equipped lab in India today- results of these steps could only be good.
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May 24, 2012 11:58am
I have referred system, and not institution. and even , Calcutta University, Shibpur Engineering collage, Calcutta Medical collage, Presidency collage, Scottish Charge collage, Hindu Collage, Sanskrit collage, Lady Brabone collage, Hare School, to name few, were the main education centers established before partition in Calcutta city alone. There are other numerous such collages, schools even universities were spared all over India. Sir, CV Raman, DR. JC Bose, DR. Satendranath Bose, DR. Meghanad Saha, Sir, Asuthosh Mukerjee, PC Mahalanobish, Horgovinda Kurana, DR. Homi Bhaba, Dr. Amatya Sen were not the product free India. It is true that IIT's IIM's and other place of educational excellence played a very pivotal roll to enhance India's education, but foundation was there. At least after establishing many IIT's & IIM's IISC's, India did not faced trouble to get quality teacher to impart quality education. I also differ with the percentage of 11
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May 24, 2012 12:03pm
@Manish
@Sandeep
You both have got it wrong. I would like to rephrase the same. We know pretty well that
there are people belonging to forward and back ward class in India.
If a particular group is suceeding in a faroff land, there must be reasons why they tick.
If we know the reason then we can educate the less fortunate people to learn from them to succeed in life.
Let it be known to you that caste does play a role in an indivuals life in India which is a shame./
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May 24, 2012 12:09pm
I heartily agree that the most important fact for any analysis of this kind is incomplete with out the caste factor. It is well know fact that people born of certain advanced castes have been denied opportunities in India. This critical challenge is proved very good for these communities to respond magnificently and the cream of Indian youth who are unfairly denied succeeded in making a mark else where. There is little way one can suppress talent. Theory of "challenge and response" by Arnold Joseph Toynbee a British historian whose twelve-volume analysis of the rise and fall of civilizations, A Study of History, is highly relevant here.
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May 24, 2012 12:20pm
how about Chinese born I think they would have even better figures over Indian immigrants..
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May 24, 2012 12:26pm
I'm working in IT industry on the east cost for last 14 years. I've come accross all kinds. I have seen 99% Indians dominate software development jobs which BTW offer highest salary compensation comparing to systems engineers and network engineers or cyber security engineers.
It all comes down to wrok ethic regardless how many master degrees a person holds. There is this stigma that if the person is well educated he or she deserves the best possible career. But where is the work ethic? Adding value to the business/organization you work for. Majority just try to leech on the system.
Few of my best friends are from India and are smartest people on the planet but I have also work with some who are very well educated Indians but these guys just play the system and are very slick/clever-- call them sweet talkers.
I'm pretty much disappointed with Pakistani professionals, although we are very capable and smarr but have a baggage to carry everywhere. We do have issues blending into the society fluidly whereas Indian community is far more open and participate in volunteer work. Pakistanis have confined themseleves and there is very little involvement in public forums.
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Jun 12, 2012 03:46pm
Irtiza -- please name on management or engineering oor medical university of Pakistan that has attained any world fame? - seriously, name one institute?
Before you name LUMS, please see LUMS placements-- I do not see any internation recruiter
Now, see placements of IITs and IIMs - seriously, is there any comparison?
Please see use logic and factual figures -- otherwise, as always, it all of hot air from Pakistanis!
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May 24, 2012 01:01pm
What an absurd logic! So Hindus are progressing because they are doing haram business and consuming alcohol? Dont be an ostrich and bury your head in sand.
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May 24, 2012 01:03pm
I know it is easy to get carried away by the hype, as u so obviously are. It is also easy to quote pure fiction as fact, but my friend 38% of all US doctors are NOT indian. I should know something about this as I am a physician in the USA........and also an Indian.
And this tired response of " try to google it..." is getting rather ......tired.
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May 24, 2012 03:08pm
i do know that caste does play a role. but the moment i say caste does play a role in the way how we think, i will be politically incorrect, and great deal of people will criticize for my casteist tone. but let me bite the bullet.
a great deal of our professors in our colleges are brahmins, businessmens are vaishyas, kshatriyas in army.
i had personal experience with people who are content doing a good job after a graduate degree, and will never drop out of work to pursue higher degrees. whereas a great many do not think of going for job, and head straightaway for pg and phd. so maybe it's the difference in culture at our home. and we know that caste does play a role in how we are brought up. ALTHOUGH THE RECENT YEARS HAVE DEFIED SUCH THING BUT A LOT OF WORK IS TO BE DONE.
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May 24, 2012 01:24pm
My God Abhinav. Hardly few years of progress and hardly a small percentage of Indians getting benifits of Indian progress and you so early started feeling pround and arrogant. Seriously, its a shame. Comapre with China or Swrotzerland..itna ghamand..we are best..we are on boat..you missed bus..all your thoughts stink
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May 24, 2012 01:33pm
Since when we have Metro Mr Mitha..it is not too long. Have you ever spoken to an MBA from Tangori or Lala type colleges in India?
So much arrogance for a country where dont know how many women are raped in a day, how many people are killed in religios riots every year..AIDS and illetracy..see hunger chart on wiki..
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May 24, 2012 01:35pm
Article to theek hai par ek tarafa hai. Indian kuch kam kaamchor thode hi hain. Zara mujhe hi dekh lein....
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May 24, 2012 02:08pm
I hear this comparison all the time here in the States. I got my undergraduated and graduated degress from leading univeristies and working my way to a doctorate degree. I don't think myself to be any less educated than any patel, Kumar or Singh. I certainly do not mean in a derogatory way. You have to compare apples to apples and other factors. Numerically India's and Pakistani's are far apart simply because of the ppopulation ratio, nothing else. In Central Florida some of the hospital's have majority Doctors who graduated from Pakistan. I can challenge the author to pick out any major University and count the number of students from Pakistan and India, and you see the ratio alomost stays the same as the population. Then check the faculty members, and you will see if they are five Indian Professors and they is atleast two Pakistani professors. There in not much disparity in education level as some of you are implying. yes there is desparity in income level because of other factors. Just look at this forum how our friends from across the border are responding with genneralization.
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May 24, 2012 02:13pm
You forgot many Sikh cab drivers buddy and many Indians who work menial jobs as well.
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May 24, 2012 02:25pm
Comparative analysis of various South Asian groups of nationalities in comparison with Indians professionals ought to factor on one very important issue. Unlike other S. Asian neighbours, Indian political leader irrespective of the affiliations have been actively promoting vote bank mediocrity through competitive increasing reservations totally asphyxiating talent. There is unbelievable reservation of 69 % in some states like Tamil Nadu. Merit has no place to go other than go to greener pastures. Country’s loss of primer brain is the gain of Western nations. Brainy youth has magnificently responded to the gauntlet thrown. Nothing else can be reason the Indians doing very well. Given a similar circumstances Pakistan or Bangla Desh or Afghan youth would have performed with equal credit.
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May 24, 2012 02:27pm
We the por indian cant get benifited by those highly educated people working(labour for the prosparity of OTHER NATIONS. The conclusion : india got braindrain, other countries sent their people to get benifit of prosparity of that nations.
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May 24, 2012 02:28pm
Dawn website has now become infested with anti-Pakistan Indians who now participate in every discussion about Pakistani problems. Dawn moderators need to do a better job. Most of the comments are by Indians mocking Pakistanis.
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May 24, 2012 02:30pm
mukhtar, yes you are right. its an insult to compare india with pak . it should cmpare with like china ,brazil, ussr.
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May 24, 2012 02:32pm
For Literacy check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Literacy_in_Ind...
I did not say that there were no college/university in India before 1947. Of course there were few universities and colleges catering only to a small fraction of society.
Considering the facts that Pakistan also inherited same 'British system' and the fact that article specifically mentioned that Indian immigrants are relatively new (mostly after 1990), your argument is not cogent in the given scenario.
Not that it makes any difference to original topic, nevertheless, the eminent personalities you have mentioned:
Dr JC Bose: Received the Natural Science Tripos from the University of Cambridge and a BSc from the University of London in 1884.
Dr Amartya Sen: B.A. Trinity College, Cambridge. PhD.Trinity college. Teaching mostly at: MIT, Oxford, UC-Berkeley, Stanford, Cornell, etc.
Dr Homi Bhabha: at age of 18: Caius College at Cambridge University (1927). Starting his scientific career in nuclear physics from Great Britain (Cavendish Laboratory). Returned to India ONLY because of world war II.
Dr Har Gobind Khorana: PhD at University of Liverpool (1948), Postdoctoral studies in Zürich (1948–1949). Later two years at Cambridge University, In 1952: University of British Columbia, Vancouver and then to University of Wisconsin–Madison, etc.
So, probably CV Raman and up to some extent Saha and Bose can be attributed to the product of British-system-of-Education in colonized India. Others were simply the products of GB/European/US universities; not of what you called British-systemized Indian universities.
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May 24, 2012 02:33pm
This article really distances India-Pakistan and other regional neighbors from religious or military comparison to education and wealth comparison. We all south asians have same common dream to work and settle in US or Europe or Gulf. Personally being a part of this dream race; I have seen people from my country (India) will run for everything like education, family, home or money keeping their religion vows in control (not just hindus but also Indian muslims too). But from other south asian nations, the educated pool of people being too less compared to huge indian crowd; so they are getting shadowed in all areas across the globe.
Best way to rise up is to include free and fair education for all classes of society with no India centric hate education. I guess Microsoft foundation, Intel foundation and many others are fully integrated into open education and job areas in India. Anyways heads up to author of this article.
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May 24, 2012 02:52pm
hmm.. Its not Harvard...Its Oxford university...
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May 24, 2012 02:55pm
What about Indian doctor's performance in residency interviews? what about their social skills? They have the scores but no social or language skills. What do you have to say Mr. Mitha?
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May 24, 2012 02:57pm
Why should a woman wear purdah in USA and complain of discrimination? It's like saying a miniskirt wearing good all american girl faces discrimination in Saudi Arabia.
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May 24, 2012 02:58pm
There is another major driving force for Indian success in US and other countries...RESERVATIONS...Indians who are annoyed by this reservations system are simply flying to other countries...Our leaders are comfortable enough to complain about BRAIN DRAIN..But they donot care about seeing why this problem has come..
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May 24, 2012 03:32pm
From India every one is Indian. As simple it is.
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May 24, 2012 03:36pm
Jay when it come to history, 65 years is drop in ocean. Author's vision is much broader than your thinking.
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May 24, 2012 03:44pm
If the median income of Pakistanis is reported as 63K in another article today then your statement is baseless to say the least. Did you at least bother to read the other article or read what you want to read ie everything negative about PAk?
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May 24, 2012 03:48pm
Manish, I think the Indians are very hard working people in general. They do better than Pakistanis in the first place because a large number or the creme de la creme of India come to US in the first place.
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May 24, 2012 03:55pm
What it take to wake you up from this slumber. Do you know what US is?
Shame on you for same rant on every article. Read it with open mind and try to rectify the shortcoming on your part instead of blaming everything wrong on others.
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May 24, 2012 04:07pm
Author failed to point conspiring JEWs (who own most businesses) against true Islam (i.e, Pakistani) and Bania mentality of of Hindus (i.e., Indians)..end of sarcasm :)
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May 24, 2012 04:12pm
Simple reason is denial of visas. Hindu students get visas easily, not muslims esp. from Pakistan. Many doctors, engineers etc are denied visas or their visas are thrown into security check which results in their admission to US universities getting cancelled. This is probably a policy supported by the American establishment to prevent too many muslims from migrating to the USA.
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May 24, 2012 04:19pm
Sure ... how dare muslims dream of a better life than non-muslims ...
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May 24, 2012 04:29pm
Could it be that Indians are more liberated from religion than the Pakistanis, consequently have a freer spirit? Most of our generation of 50s in India were not only anti-religious but were actively rationalist on the other hand Pakistan started with the same base but was latter on taken over by extremism. India continued on rational path and Pakistani people were force fed religion. In India this view helped to develop rational thought and desire to find answers in sciences. Just a point to ponder over.
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May 24, 2012 04:48pm
Azeem Saab.....If a group is doing well, that's nice. But at the same time gloating and putting down other groups is not in in good taste. We have a lot more to explore and reach out to in this universe, that will happen when we human race which includes all groups are successful as a whole.
I have to quote ' sarva loka sukhino bhavanthu' which means ' all worlds and things be happy and prosperous
-Hari
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May 24, 2012 05:24pm
USA restricts immigration from India and China severely and allows only H1B route for legal immigration. This naturally causes only people with advanced degrees to immigrate. Also, It is unfair to compare Indian immigrants with neighboring muslim countries as most of the Indian immigrants to developed countries belong to the brahmin caste who work harder and perform much better in intellectual exercises than their lower caste counterparts even in India.
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May 24, 2012 05:31pm
". Also India is the bigger market, so Indians are given jobs more easily by American company."
China is a even bigger market than India. So are Chinese given jobs more easily by American companies? A strange logic which can only come out of a need to score points at the cost of sacrificing the truth.
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May 24, 2012 05:33pm
Thi is a comparison of nationalities and not castes. They even have castes in Pakistan and Bangladesh. But taking a look at the caste numbers would be interesting too but we should not muddle the difference between nationalities and castes.
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May 24, 2012 05:36pm
Ahhh...clever argument...Pakistanis are not doing well because they are too moral. But does a a person being moral stop them from being educated properly? Are morality and education mutually exclusive?
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May 24, 2012 05:45pm
That rule doesn't apply for higher education especially professional colleges. Also there are many private schools which are run by charities and trusts which offer quality education at subsidized cost. So private is not always expensive in India. Also, not everyone needs to go to the "best" school to be well educated. It mostly boils down to personal effort beyond a certain threshold. The institutions just offer a space to get a student to that threshold.
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May 24, 2012 05:48pm
"The Indians have manipulated the US visa system as usual against pakistanis."
I didn't know that the US government has outsourced the US visa program to the Indian government. Is there any basis for this claim?
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May 24, 2012 05:58pm
This makes sense! I am Indian immigrant, educated in India and I earn around $90k in New York :-)
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May 24, 2012 06:11pm
It is not the order of mother,father, guru, god.The meaning is that mother, father and guru are gods.
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May 24, 2012 06:16pm
Any person when he meets a pakistani person, one tries to be away from pakistani.
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May 24, 2012 06:23pm
Have no points in your statement. "Since most of us are getting jobs"...? give me a break. It should be rather "most of us are fighting for jobs" based upon their skills. And if I'm not wrong I think, if at all I recall correctly, we had one global recession in 2008!! and we went through that. Dude make valid point, despite global recession only two countries were tagged as global engine toward recovery and that were India and China. To some extent I can agree that we need lots to do in education sector and we all are working on it with optimism.
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May 24, 2012 06:34pm
I agree with you Abbas i know this for a fact that the visa policy is different for muslims atleast since 2001.
I personally know of recruitment of a large number of indian nurses in Norway in the last years without any language or prior family. It is understandable that muslims are not the first priority of any european country or US. Statistics dont show such facts.
Secondly I know about UK that a very large number of indian doctors come there even the ones who are specialists or have experience of more than 10 years or so. From Pakistan only newly educated doctors go to UK. I dont know the reason for this difference but this is something the younger pakistani docotors say when they apply for jobs. ''We have to compete with a number of specialists from india on the same jobs with alot of experience.''
For me the things which are left out in a statistic are more important.
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May 24, 2012 06:38pm
Musheir whether you or any agree or not on Pramod statistics but would like to draw points to everyone that it to some extent true. Will give you an example, I am from IT industry in India and we worked for number of clients based on USA and UK and surprising when I gone though their employee directory many of them are Indians and hold high position to rank of from offcourse Engineer to CEO to Director. So try to listen the essence of statistics rather than the exact number statistic.
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May 24, 2012 08:02pm
there is nothing about iranian in the US i believe they are more successful than indians.
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May 24, 2012 08:10pm
You have put it in a nutshell.
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May 24, 2012 08:28pm
First thing first, Who are you? a matriculate from Bombay excuse me Mumbai now or an MBA from Pakistan. Pakistanis in The US is the subject here and not your venomous statement. No doubt a lot of Indians are highly educated and so are Pakistanis. I have lived in the US for thirty years and know that majority of Indians wives do work outside the house where as the Pakistani women stay home. From experience I can tell about a wife stayed home and raised three children A doctor, A Lawyer and a Journalist and there are a lot of them.
Most women who worked Indian, Pakistani or else had to struggle with their children's education because those children were raised by television while the parents were at work and not by a loving parent. It is a trade off. Do the math have some money now or invest in your children's future.
From your statement above all I can see is a person who has a very negative outlook on life in Pakistan. Do you know how Dalits are treated in India? Do some research and come back with your comments. Do you know that there are areas in India where one woman is married to all the brothers in the household. I can go on and on but I would like you to enlighten yourself now. Compare that to porn being watched.
I have traveled vastly and can tell from experience that Pakistanis are very warm people inside or outside the country.
Pakistan has its share of setbacks and bad governance but you cannot exclude India by any means. I will wait for comments.
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May 24, 2012 09:07pm
I live in States from last 9 years. I know none of such Indian family. I saw couple of Indian families moving back to India bec they dont want to raise their children here.
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May 24, 2012 09:13pm
@Vijay:
haha; and I know some SC families who are using false B category certificates so they can get low caste benefits. I dont believe in caste based reservation. There shd be income base reservations; that would suffice everyone's need.
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May 24, 2012 09:47pm
One important aspect missed by the author is that from India, largely skilled force has migrated to US while from Pakistan and Bangladesh, a large number of non skilled force has come to US specially before 9/11. Among other factors this is also a reason for the gap. Why poor and non skilled Indians have not come to US is another debate. This trend is not limited to US too, its also in other countries as you find very few poor of India migrating to western countries though they do so in Gulf countries.
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May 24, 2012 11:14pm
That is not correct,education varies.Some universities are very good but there are some where teaching standards are terrible.It is not going well but it is better than before.Read an NDTV article http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/an-open-letter-... .
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May 25, 2012 03:37am
Why success is being measured by the amount of money a household is making? What is wrong if father is the bread earner and wife stays home and take care of upbringing of children?
It is perfectly all right to have one bread earner as long as a family is law abiding and a productive unit of a society and a stay home mom taking care of future law abiding citizens.
Please do not forget there are 2 Indian hedge Fund Managers who are the ONLY one indited by US court and handed down long JAIL sentences for monetary FRAUD that almost bankrupted the WORLD economy.
Western countries always pride themselves on to be FREE by allowing every one person and Communities to live their lives as they please.....Mingling of communities takes time. In hundreds of years Hindus, Muslims and Christians are still separate communities and living in their own enclaves....
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May 25, 2012 12:35am
Very True.Among all western countries, USA have lowest taxes and lowest inflation.USA have unlimited oppurtunities and options.
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May 25, 2012 01:22am
I see a lot of Indians here (gloating about the greatness of their country) and very few Pakistanis - only those that can perceive the damage at the lack of focus on education in their land but which they too would like to see.
As an alumnus of the much vaunted IIM mentioned Ad Nauseum here, and as someone who have also handled the new batch of Indian "professionals" coming to this land, sorry the US, I would like to say;
a) There is a lot of hype.
b) A lot of people came in the pre-2000 period, who did not know how to write codes, let alone speak English. These were products of a mushrooming Engineering College business that sprouted overnight -especially in Southern India, to make a quick buck.
c) Many who could not handle the fierce competition and the economic crisis have gone back as well. Those that remained have shown their resilience but in general, they belong to the better educated among the masses of degree holders that landed here.
d) The Indians are as much prone to living in Ghettos as the Pakistanis....of course, with increased wealth and familiarity comes the need and ability to move into the 'burbs. However, food and religious inclinations keep a lot of people huddle together.
e) I cannot really speak of Pakistanis as I have not had much interactions with them at work place but once a neighbor of mine was a US born person of Pakistani descent, in the suburbs of Boston. I met his mom, while running and she pushing her grandchild on a cart and we had very pleasant conversation in Urdu, but I never saw his wife as she only stayed inside and who the mother told me was his first cousin, in other words, his mom's sister's daughter.
f) A land cannot be called great just because a small percentage with elite education have made it big in another land. It calls for the whole nation - that is irrespective of your economic and social status, to be able to participate in the game. As someone earlier stated here, very aptly, if India were so great, we would not need to be living abroad and reading Dawn...we could have stayed home. The heartening factor though, at least in the case of India, there is a genuine desire, to move forward with education that I can perceive. When will that lead to fruition? I have no Crystal ball to answer that. As far as Pakistan, I hope the readers from that land will be able to upend the present notion of the place they call home.
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May 25, 2012 02:21am
MKB, dude, it is COLLEGE, not COLLAGE!
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May 25, 2012 03:13am
I am an Indian Hindu and I am ashamed of the ignorant bragging of my countryman. What do you know of Arabian and Persian books? I do not argue about yoga but are you proud that Indians make money out of astrology (jyotish)? And even Yoga is a phenomenon that has deeper South Asian roots. The famous Vajrasana of Yoga is the namaz pose of every Muslim in the world. Kawali's are deeply spiritual and the Persian words Khuda and Khudee shows the intrinsic Rajayoga of its culture. As Amartya Sen pointed it out, the great Panini was an Afghan.
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May 25, 2012 03:16am
I have read the article and no doubt it top notch article.I cant understand why we keep on comparing.I wish prosperity to both India and Pakistan.Our tragedy is that our leaders want common man to think that it is the people on other side who are responsible for all wrong doings.Our leaders have kept buying ammunition for kick backs and that has left common man pockets empty and no funds for education.I am from Pakistan working in Australia, and I do believe all men are equal regardless of their religious beliefs and origin.If in India , the situation is getting better due to better education , then I salute Indian educators.
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May 25, 2012 03:50am
Azeem, Are you for real?
Come to NYC and I can show you a list of Indians on Food stamps, state welfare, tax evaders.......like any other segment of american society.
There are indians who are living like 10 in One BR apartment here in NYC and I know them personally. Doing labor job is not BAD, rather honorable. I think you should look around and observe for many years before comment.
Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians are on equal footings except that Indians are in millions and we are in hundreds and that fact Skew the studies.
I am not denying the achievements of Indians.....and they deserve it but it does not mean that all pakistanis are doing LABOR jobs........Grow up....please.
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May 25, 2012 04:03am
Dear BHB, Almost all Jobs including engineering, Medical (doctor), corporate executive are mainly secured based on NETWORKING.
Also, most of IT jobs are being secured by NETWORKING and who you know at the right place. As you know Most of American IT professionals were laid off by these corporations only to hire outsourced people.
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May 25, 2012 04:18am
A better comparison could be with Indian Muslims in USA.
One reason indian household income is higher is because most of the women work as compared to pakistani women.pakistani.
"Many Muslims refrain from businesses involving interest, alcohol, non-halal, and gambling".
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May 25, 2012 04:39am
Sunil, you are wrong. British did leave behind a good liberal education system which was also well supported by Catholic and other Christian Institutions. The problem was only 11% had access to this liberal education. Successive Indian Governments have improved access (now resulting in RTE) and also built new Institutions. The contribution made by the Christian Institutions to education in India was very significant. Unfortunately, even as we talk about RTE and the reposnibility of parents to avail of this right, some Muslims do not want to avail of this opportunity and instead want to send their children to Madrassas.
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May 25, 2012 04:43am
Does India look like a country run by intelligent people?
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May 25, 2012 05:35am
Not true, as far as Australia is concerned. Australia generally allows only skilled migrants. First wave of migrants (1970s) were all Doctors. the second wave starting in the 1980 were all computer professionals. Only now a kind of mass migration is being allowed. If you see the performance of immigrant children, India ranks second to the Chinese and significantly ahead of the local population. I have been living in Australia for the past 25 years.
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May 25, 2012 05:53am
i have worked at NASA. Your data about at least NASA is wrong
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May 25, 2012 06:52am
Pramod..is everything ok with you? You have copied this from a forwarded Email which was sent randomly to Indians few years ago. Do you really believe such Emails? You are funny..
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May 25, 2012 07:00am
I really can not count how many Indians I know here (I live in EU) and to which caste they belong. None of the embassies asked me about my caste and I do not apply for a job here mentioning my caste.
Caste does play a role while finding a life partner mainly due to compatibility reasons. This does not apply in professional life.
FYI, I am khatri (soldier) by caste. None of my cousins, uncles, even grand parents and even their siblings were ever in army.
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May 25, 2012 07:27am
Dear Sir
Did you consider that fact that bulk of Indians are doing those jobs where you can't hide your income (white collar salaried employees) while most of Pakistanis have to self declare their income for tax purposes (like small business, taxis etc). I bet that most of them are hiding their real income to save tax and that is why overall picture is a lot distorted. I don't think we have smuggled laborers to USA. All of them, whom I know are doing fairly well and spend half a million rupees in one trip back home
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May 25, 2012 07:19am
@Pramod,
you embarrass yourself (and perhaps Indians), with all that nonsensical data? For e.g. NASA has between 18-24,000 employees, and according to you, 8-9000 are Indians! The same can be said about your other figures.
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May 25, 2012 07:20am
Great article.
Agree that in general Indian candidates have a stronger knowledge base . Indian nonmuslims also merge quicker and easily in the main stream but more so the newer comers.
Muslims still have the barrier in social mingling needs that holds them back from mainstream.
Indian also facilitate fellow nationals and newcomers on religious / ethnic lines for better opportunities. Pakistanis are more in a survival mode and looking out for themselves.
There is this sense of mistrust among the Asians indo-pak-Bangladesh for each other that may have some historical origin but in this day and age is ridiculous and not well founded.
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May 25, 2012 07:46am
if what u r saying is true, Pakistanis in US should have better stats than Indian. Because if US embassy is tougher in giving visas to Pakistanis , it only means that any Pakistanis who are able to get US visa has be extra ordinary person i.e. more educated, from good background etc. on the other hand, Indians would be more likely to get entry even if they are not as good as their Pakistani counterparts. Therefore an average Pakistani in US would be more likely to succeed than their Indian counterparts but report shows exactly opposite.
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May 25, 2012 08:30am
Just to answer you on that, the Indian Express newspaper today carried a news story that nearly 400 Muslim aspirants have cracked the IIT-JEE this year
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May 25, 2012 08:35am
just one comment "Pakistanis are a confused bunch of people, at home and abroad."
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May 25, 2012 09:41am
Very rigid analysis - I will follow the author in the future. However, I want to highlight a major error.
Whats missing here is how the first wave of immigrants arrived and their follwup patterns. The first wave of Indians to hit the US was absolutely different from other immigrants migrations. This group that came in the 60's was almost all highly educated (PHD, Masters) and individual migrations - there was no exodus, famine, need for factory labor, African dictator - I stress it was 100% individuals on their own. No family, no business networks, almost 100% professional (doctors and engineers). You can look at just one school - IIT Kharagpur and take the graduating class of 1962 68 - almost half of the PHD's students immigrated abroad on their own. Today these class reunions in New York and other cities is a millionaire meetup.. This was a group that integrated directly into US society because there was no Indian community. Their kids were brought up as Hindu's (and a few Muslims, Sikhs) but were firmly Americanized (the classic ABCD's). Later waves of migration were buisness owners and they were very very networked into other Indian groups. But networking comes with a problem - it decreases overall wealth by distributing it over too many people. If I look at the Gujrati community in the US which was part of the second wave of migration - there are many children that were not educated, there are many more elders in the home, there is a lot more sharing. Its nice but effectively this community while rich is not super rich. It produces the richest Indians but also the poorest. Then there were many other people who migrated in the 80's from all types of socio-economic backgrounds. Recently we have had many Indians come in as IT workers from South India, which probably represents a good 20-30% of the total. These folks also have good salaries but are a far cry from earlier migrants..
But lets get back to the first group and their kids - Im a third generation American and our salaries are mostly 200K+. My wife makes 550K. My brothers and sisters and their spouses all make well over 250K. We are not small business owners, we are financial strategist, management consultants, CFO's, lawyers, politicians, hedge fund managers and startup owners. This is not a small elite group of business moguls, it is a highly educated, highly Americanized group of urban professionals - there are 10,000's of us and this is why the Indian average income is over 100K.
I raise this point not in hubris but to strongly refute the author's premise that more wealth is generated by recent immigrants. In my experience recent immigrants from India are not as dynamic as those that came in the 60's and they are also much less likely to put all their eggs into the US as they are still tied to India (this is not judgement - its just a fact of a connected world, low air fares, and a booming India versus a indebted US. When we grew up India was unreachable). I would ask the author to correct this point.
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May 25, 2012 05:20pm
"Pakistanis are made to believe......" How if I may ask, can you present some facts that led you to this conclusion? The Halal Industry is worth many many times more than the $US 7 billion you quoted.
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May 25, 2012 10:46am
The story is also true here in UK. Like Canada, most Pakistanis and bangladeshis are on benefits. they have every contempt and hatred for the local people and their culture, but they never go back. Worse, they tell their children to hate the local culture. Muslim children are puzzled and they do not know which way to proceed. Extreme obsession on religion drags the muslim children quite a lot.
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May 25, 2012 10:48am
Not fair to compare India with Pakistan. It;s like comparing Apple with a 486 machine! Dont even waste time on such comparisons.
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May 25, 2012 11:37am
only ethnic group having more per capita income than indian americans is jews, who certainly are much earlier arrivals. and indians have 30% more per capita income than iranians..
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May 25, 2012 11:38am
I think we in India should start a student exchange program. Reserve 1% seats in IITs & IIMs for bright students from Pakistan from the middle & lower rung of the society ( not the kids of politicians & generals). India, as a SAARC country, has a responsibility towards Pakistan.
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May 25, 2012 11:39am
have you ever wondered why this suspicision towards muslims and not towards other religions/
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May 25, 2012 11:44am
An excellent piece and analysis. The important thing to learn from this data: a nation whether prospering or lacking educational progress must have courage to look at the deficiencies and it's flaws and continue to improve continuously.
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May 25, 2012 12:24pm
Very Well Said
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May 25, 2012 12:31pm
This shows the anguish of a "Common Man" as R K Laxman would put it. what else can he do except satarise the situation. Tell what are you able to do in India when our politicians are freely engaged in corruption of stellar proportions. I also feel the same here in India often. Though the circumstances maybe slightly different. Finally let us not be living in a dreamworld and think that government might care for any suggestions written in the blogs, when governments on either side of the border are restricting internet users on some ground or the other. The Indian IT act it seems is very very dangerous at least that is what is being told by the experts in various fora.
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May 25, 2012 01:11pm
You are very magnanimous. It is a bit off the topic, but do you realise that Hindu girls are abducted, raped and converted in Pakistan whilst their society and their legal system suppport the criminals and their government does nothing to prevent this. I have not seen any high profile person in Pakistan condem this. But if one protester gets killed in Kashmir, the whole Pakistan protests . That is pathetic to say the least
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May 25, 2012 02:20pm
@Sohail
On the issue of governance also, the results are similar.
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May 25, 2012 02:06pm
Excellent idea!! Wholeheartedly support it.
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May 25, 2012 02:33pm
He is talking about Engineers and Managers, not janitors or book keepers.
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May 25, 2012 03:52pm
What a disgusting input to such a well written article.
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May 25, 2012 04:05pm
Funny so you are saying Pakistanis are evading taxes in USA like they were doing in Pakistan.Then expect uncle sam to come hard on you.
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May 25, 2012 05:25pm
Very well written. It substanties very well something which is well pereceived. As an American Indian, would like to see how we (Am Indians) fare against American Chinese and Jewish Americans. The reason being we would like to benchmark ourselves against people who are ahead of us (at least that is our perception) - not the other way around... Thanks.
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May 25, 2012 05:30pm
Its true that no one can grow just because of connections but writer was not arguing against that. Point is that social network helps to create opportunities it could be either through providing awareness, information, referrals, inspiration etc etc. For example if I have friends working in NASA then it will inspire me to follow their steps also they can provide me information that can help me to get in. Huge and vibrant Indian diaspora plays important role intentionally or unintentionally for pulling up their fellow country men. And that is how it should be.
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May 26, 2012 12:06am
We can't compare Pakistani or Afgan immigrants with Indians. Because most of the Indian immigrants are arrived in US based on their education. Most of them are highly educated. But the case of Pakistanis or Afgans are different. Most of them arrived in US as refugees.
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May 26, 2012 01:49am
Communication wise, you get a poor rating sir. There was little coherence in your paragraphs and excessive rambling. I was interested in what you had to say initially but you lost me in the second paragraph.
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May 26, 2012 03:02am
It just shows, that average Pakistani knows how to emigrate to USA, more than an average Indian.
Even an average or below average Pakistani is going to USA, due to their connections
while only above average Indian is going to USA.
Overall, I see it as a positive for Pakistanis and better than Indians
in their abilitiy and connections to go to USA
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May 26, 2012 05:09am
Pakistanis gets green cards very very easily then indians in US who must wait 5-10 years for green cards.
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May 26, 2012 08:26am
"large number or the creme de la creme of India come to US" Correctly said. The cream has no value in vote bank caste base reservation driven India. Indian leaders are shooting at their foot and losing the best and creative. Western World is the beneficiary.The brainy ones have picked up the gauntlet and proved to the world that talent cannot be suppressed..
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May 26, 2012 10:23am
You might be right in your circumstances, but honestly speaking Indians love to be friend with Pakistanis especially the girls.
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May 26, 2012 10:45am
Dear Shams,
Very nice reply. I agree with you that if mothers are staying at home and taking care of kids in well manners then, certainly, they are bringing up a well civilized future nation. But the issue which was being discussed was disparity of financial position between different nationalities so i was trying to explain the reason according to my personal experience. As long as intermingling with other communities is concerned, it helps you out to find jobs. If you are an expatriate then you must be aware how important is to have good reference in order to find a good job. I am not saying we should embrace other societies completely but we should be at least little flexible so that we can spend time them, understand and respect their point of view, and be friends with them. It will bring religious, cultural, communal and ethnic tolerance among us along with help in making good career moves.
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May 26, 2012 05:44pm
Hahaha ... Anuj .. yours was the best comment of all.
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May 27, 2012 01:16am
Dear Azar.
There are several reasons why fewer pakistani women work. They are less educated and have more children at home to look after. In some indian families wives stay at home or work part time especially if the husband is a high earner and in the west women at work are not seen negatively.
As per dalits, do you know that they are given Reservation in Professional colleges, jobs etc ? There are even MP seats reserved for dalits. There are dalit Chief Ministers, MPs, MlLA s and we even had dalit Presidents. Same applies for minorties. Can you tell me how hindus and christians are treated in Pakistan?
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May 27, 2012 10:39am
Great Panini was from Afghan when there was no Islam :)
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May 27, 2012 01:25pm
Is that true, that Panini was an Afghan, as stated by Sen? Could you please reference it? Thanks.
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May 27, 2012 01:38pm
Point well made in your last paragraph. However, the fact is there is greater visibility of later arrivals because of some of the spectacular successes in the Internet era - Hotmail or Sun Micro systems and so forth, never before seen.
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May 27, 2012 01:38pm
I support Srinivasa's thoughts. However good you do for them, it would be going to drain. They have proved it again and again.
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May 27, 2012 05:56pm
These are very curious facts. You have the right words to explain them clearly. Thank you for posting this!
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May 27, 2012 11:51pm
There are 4.7 million Pakistani diaspora and about 11.4 million Indians. Considering that Indian population is 6.5 times that of PAkistanis, your basis that Pakistanis have been discriminated against does not stand the test of facts and data. Also remember anyone from the Indian subcontinebt who had emigrated before 1947 is considered as Indian diaspora regardless of whether they came from present day India, Pakistan or Bangladesh.
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May 28, 2012 06:02am
I read both articles from Dr Haider. I don’t know what is Dr Haider agenda but he is doing baseless exercise. Dr Haider took raw statistical data and tried to create a picture what he want to show.
Ok there is no debate that we the Pakistani need to improve our education system. (Period)
Now come the baseless comparison. Dr Haider forgot to include some fact in all the exercise.
1)India is 7 fold bigger with reference to population.
2)Indian Sikh community worked in the construction of Canadian Pacific Railway in 1885. (Presence more then 130 years.)
3)India got independence in 1947 (regime change) whereas Pakistan got independence and falling apart from India in 1947. India is an old country whereas Pakistan is relatively new.
4)There are anti Pakistani sentiments after 911.
Dr. Haider thinks that having more children is not a healthy sign whereas middle class families’ having multiple children is a good economic indicator.
I hope that Dr Haider will include above-mentioned facts in any further discussion.
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May 29, 2012 01:44am
Labour participation rates of women in Indonesia are higher than even India. Also, if you read this article 42% Pakistani women and 56% Indian women in US are in labour force. Thus there is 33% higher labour participation rate but the per capita income of Indians is much higher. So while this may explain part of the difference, it does not fully expain the difference.
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May 29, 2012 06:42am
About Indian education....i know Indian people having bogus engineering degrees from some universities.....claiming all is well for Indian education is not true.....
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May 30, 2012 06:09pm
it was sarcasm, Dr Watson.
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May 30, 2012 09:21pm
Thumbs up to you, Dude! Also think of starting/supporting schools/institutes in India so others after you can benefit. All of us who can contribute to this effort should do so in whatever way we can.
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May 30, 2012 09:46pm
seriously? Comparing 1.25 billion with .17 billion?
Dr Haider doesn't seem to understand that the educated class who has come out of Pakistan & India are with par...Just because their quantity is always 10 times more than us doesn't me they are ahead of it in everything.
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Jun 12, 2012 04:44pm
Awesome point Farhan -- now pakistanis want to make US like pakistan - pay no taxes, but get all benefits free?!? - and you prouldy state this in defence of of pakistanis?! -- amazing!
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May 31, 2012 04:16am
You are not an AMERICAN INDIAN (native american), you are an Indian American....big difference!
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Jun 01, 2012 12:10pm
Why Pakistanis do not reveal their identity to govt in govt in a voluntary survey that they are from Pakistan?
Does it an offence to reveal that they are Pakistani ?
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Jul 26, 2012 09:25pm
very true
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Jul 26, 2012 10:03pm
Not true. In UK,thousands of poor Indians migrated in the disguise of student visas in the last five years.
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Jul 26, 2012 10:47pm
How would you explain that thirteen percent of UK prisoners are muslims,whereas three percent of UK population is muslim.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2084722/G...
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