It was supposed to be five minutes long, but the last interview of the day meant this late night conversation lasted longer than a quarter of a pack of smokes. The brief warned about questions relating to bilateral relations. But after a weekend of promoting Dilwale, dancing at the 5th Annual Filmfare Gala, King Khan and Kajol were ready to roll their sleeves, put their feet up, and talk to Images on Sunday about speaking their minds and not giving a damn.

What does it feel like when you look at montages of your old movies?

Kajol: That we were very very young!

SRK: I wouldn’t say we make fun of it, but you know the times were different, the looks were different.

Do you feel your acting could have been better?

SRK: Obviously, obviously. But you realise that in the rawness and innocence of when you didn’t know technique, that when you know it like we do now…

Kajol: You can’t do that anymore

SRK: Exactly. That acting had its own charm. And you understand why people liked it. Of course, even then it seemed alright too. But 20 years down the line, we’ve have evolved, things have changed

Kajol: And the clothes have changed (laughs).

Do you feel the new breed of actors is more industry savvy than you were when you first started off?

Kajol: Oh yeah, they are very savvy. Not only industry savvy, but in where they want to go, personally, as far as their brand is concerned, building it, being seen according to the perspective other people have of you both off-screen and onscreen, what kind of movies they want to do, how they want to build their future.

When we started off, we just did whatever we felt like. We thought about what would be good for us, but the bad would also get taken along like a pinch of salt. It was never as carefully thought over as it is today.

Is it because a lot of them come from film families and their parents were actors themselves?

Kajol: I think there were people that came from film backgrounds then as well, but it probably has more to do with the fact that the industry has changed.

SRK: And the world has changed

Kajol: The audience really doesn’t give you much of a chance now. It’s a make or break situation. Your first exam is your final exam. We actually don’t give them enough time to grow into their personalities or even to see whether they are capable of learning more and becoming better.

So if an actor fails now, then here today gone… today?

SRK: Well if an actor failed even earlier, he or she would not be there. If you fail you fail.

Kajol: But there was still something else…

SRK: You know what happened? Branding.

What do you mean?

SRK: There’s a lot of conscious brand building now. Back in the day I did it because I just felt like doing it. I wanted to do it. Now, somewhere down the line there’s a lot of planning about things that you want to do which are not things that you should do.

An interview with arguably the world’s biggest actor and his onscreen queen of the past 22 years!

Individuals should be able to do what they feel like and create something new out of that. Creativity is not mathematics; it’s not a pattern you can follow. It’s not like PR and management. Those help, but well I still don’t have a team like that. And I’m 50 years old; I can afford the best of them. I’ve actively stayed away it. So when I see them doing it, instead of sussing things out, breathing and moving a little, they just put themselves under pressure; like Kajol said, it becomes like a final exam.

You seem pretty thoughtful and pensive.

SRK: Me?

Kajol (to SRK): You are very pensive! I’m very pensive too. I’m quiet, shy, retiring, all of those things put together (laughs).

SRK: Well we sit down and discuss a lot of issues together, you know, global warming

Kajol: The ecological footprint of things

SRK: (laughs) No I’m not pensive at all yar. I’m actually quite fun.

But there are a lot of things about you that suggest that you are.

SRK: I think I try to analyse a lot. I’ve reached a place in my life where I try to analyse good things that have happened to me and I’d really like to pass things on that I’ve learned. Not as advice…

Kajol: As a life thought.

SRK: Yes, as a life thought. And it may sound philosophical but I don’t mean it like that. I garb it in jokes and I do that during some of my speeches. There are a few things, I’m not sure why they happened, but I think I can pass along what I’ve learned from them.

Sometimes you seem to be talking about a bigger issue at heart. But lately some of what you’ve said has ended up becoming controversial as well.

SRK: I have no plans, I say what I say. If I planned, I’d be dangerous. And I’m completely harmless. I speak from the heart. As you say, sometimes it ends up becoming controversial, but I really don’t give a damn because I know how I meant it. And if someone wants to take it out of context, then I’ve been a celebrity for too long to not know how things can be taken out of context. So I’m not going to worry or get disturbed about it. Yeah, I get pissed off about it. But I don’t go, “Oh my God, what are people going to think about me.” No. I know what I think. And what I think and what I believe is how at the end of the day people will think about me.

In cultures where there aren’t a lot of avenues for conversation beyond the media and politics, people sometimes look at actors for answers or even to help guide a point of view. Do you think that is fair? Do you think actors sometimes shy away promoting that conversation?

SRK: I don’t think we shy away from it. I think though that I should shy away from it. There is no discourse or discussion when an actor speaks. There are only assumptions, that this or that is an endorsement. And let’s be very honest, actors don’t have time for discussions. We work 12-14 hour days, we do our bit, finish our work, act. That’s what our job is. Any other aspects we want to talk about, you have to take time out and do it on a platform. And let me say this honestly, as an insider having known people at all stages and ages: some of the most intelligent conversations I’ve had and ever will have are with actors. We don’t have an agenda, we’re already public figures, already famous, already rich. Actors are very sensitive people, so they are honest and they speak because they feel it.

Does life imitate art or is it the other way around?

SRK: I think art imitates life. There is so much beauty and awkwardness in real life

Kajol: Life is definitely stranger than fiction, at every point.

Because a culture has existed in our societies where amorous relationships, falling in love, even dancing, were things to be restricted. However, you see a lot more of it now than earlier it seems.

Do you think cinema, especially Bollywood as one of the dominant cultural forces in the region, had anything to do with that?

SRK: In every society, there is a call or reason for something to happen, to change. You can find a trigger or a reason in Bollywood, or movies. You can use them as a point from where things might maybe begin. But I don’t think movies themselves change society.

Do you think there are enough movies being made in Indian cinema on society’s ailments instead of those which are purely romance and action oriented?

Kajol: It’s difficult to make a movie with a social message, or just a social message, let me clarify. We make movies to entertain people, stuff they would like to come and watch. It’s like how you teach someone, you can’t shove a message down their throat, you have to gently entice them and make sure they like the learning process as well. But yes, it’s very difficult to write a script like that.

SRK: Movies are a free-form. You can say whatever you feel and want through them, depending on expectations of professionalism and economics. There’s an old saying, “Movies are for entertainment. Messages are for the postal service.” And if you decide you’re going to give a message, you should know you are not going to be a popular film. You are going to be a niche film.

Do you often hear that there should be more messages in movies?

SRK: There are people that turn around and tell me, “Shah Rukh, you should only do niche films.” Well man you’re not paying my bills, producing films like me, or creating technology that I want to use in my films. So I tell them please don’t question me. I’ll give messages when I want to. Because that is what people come to movies for. If you want messages, buy a Blackberry, send an SMS. More often than not people go into movies to escape. I went into a theatre here where you had plush couches and they brought you food to your table as you watched a 70 mm exposure shot movies on screen. Not to be reminded of what’s real. But then you have to hear about how our movies are escapist. Well cinema is an escapist art form. It’s like this all over the world. It’s a flight of fantasy.

But people will continue to form opinions on movies. Item numbers for instance have invited points of view on both sides of the feminism debate. Do you ever feel like you have to justify the pursuit of escapism?

SRK: Do I look like someone who would ever justify anything to anyone? (laughs) No, I’m an actor. As a matter of fact, sometimes when I hear these debates … I know these girls, probably second best after their families. In a man’s world, nearly 99 per cent of my success is dependent on them. I know how hard they work and owe it to them, respect them and love them. We work, act and joke together. And the biggest thing the actresses do is they’ll play it off the cuff, they’ll do the item number because its fun. But if you make a big deal about it, that it is somehow objectifying women, then I can assure you none of them are objects. And out of the 200 people making that film, there is not an iota of disrespect that I have seen in 25 years.

Do you ever think you’ll become directors?

Kajol: I don’t. He might

SRK: I might. But right now I find it too lonely a job.

Are you guys familiar with Pakistani movies?

Kajol: I’ve seen a few serials but not the movies

SRK: I’ve seen some, in my childhood. Mohammad Ali Sahib and others. I’ve been there so yeah I’ve seen a lot of them.

You’ve been to Pakistan?

SRK: My family’s from Peshawar.

I knew that, I just didn’t know you had visited.

SRK: When I was young yes, my father used to take me from 1977 till about the ’80s. Muhammed Ali Sahib was a superstar, yaar. And no I haven’t seen the new movies but you guys have great TV serials, the old ones Baqra Kiston Par!

Kajol: Budha Ghar Pe Hai!

SRK (to Kajol): Yeh to comedy thi, have you seen it?

Kajol: Yes, of course! Superb!

SRK: Amazing stuff, yaar.

Second-last question. How many times have you been asked if you’ll come to Pakistan?

SRK: Mainly by Pakistanis (laughs). Maybe in the future but there aren’t any plans right now.

Last question. Can we take a selfie?

SRK: I say no and I can see the headline: “Shah Rukh Khan, arrogant superstar from India, refuses to take a photograph with a Pakistani.” (laughs).

Kajol: And you can start it with a picture of him and your selfie (laughs).

SRK: Alright. Let’s go.

Published in Dawn, Sunday Magazine December 20th, 2015