NEW YORK, Sept 26: President Pervez Musharraf has indicated that he may continue both as president and the army chief till at least 2007 to save the country from "political destabilization."

In an interview to Dawn here the president emphasized the need for 'continuity and sustainability,' two terms he has used in almost all the interviews he gave and the speeches he made during his stay in the United States.

Gen Musharraf left for the Netherlands on Saturday evening after a week-long stay in the United States during which he addressed the UN General Assembly, had two crucial meetings with Indian, US and Afghan leaders and inaugurated the Pakistan caucus in Washington.

In his address to the General Assembly, the president introduced the concept of 'sustainable democracy' saying that the Muslim nations need to continue their march to democracy with the pace dictated by their own compulsions.

In his interview to Dawn, the president continued to refer to this concept stressing that any abrupt change, particularly a decision like stepping down as the army chief, would have a negative impact on "continuity and sustainability of the policies" needed to fight terrorism and stabilize the country.

Leaving the army at this stage, he said, would also be interpreted as a sign of his weakness and could lead to a general destabilization both on domestic and international fronts.

The president also defended the decision to change the Jamali government saying that a government was like a train and the prime minister was its engine. "If the engine is defective, the train will not move in the right direction."

He agreed with the critics who say that the new federal cabinet was too large, but said the prime minister will constantly watch the performance of his ministers and those who do not perform will be removed. But he quickly explained: "We cannot have meritocracy in this. We do not have an ideal environment. If we take a person who does not enjoy a good reputation, we can still make him work if we have the will to do so."

Gen Musharraf acknowledged that the law and order situation in Karachi was 'not good', but said: "It's nothing to worry about as such things happen in New York as well."

"It requires courage and guts," said the president while talking about the current military operation against terror suspect in Waziristan and elsewhere, and said the army was 100 per cent behind him in this campaign.

When asked pointedly if he had an understanding with Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz that the ministers not performing well could be removed, Gen Musharraf appeared uncomfortable. "Oh, yes. Why not," he said, and then added: "But as I said this is not a 100 per cent idealistic situation. There are political dimensions in all."

THE FOLLOWING IS THE TEXT OF THE INTERVIEW:

Question: US media and human rights groups issued several statements during your visit, asking you to quit the army. Did it have a negative impact on the visit?

Answer: Well, vast majority of people want me to stay in uniform. But leaving aside who wants what, there are concerns in my mind. There are international issues, domestic issues, continuity of policies, continuity of anti-terror war, continuity of the dialogue process with India, local bodies elections, National Security Council, issues of small dams and big dams ... and then the Pakistani society is going through a change. The psyche and the mindset has to be changed.

There's a time when you could not criticize a maulvi. If you wanted to talk to Qazi (Hussain Ahmed) Saheb, you could not address him without devoting at least one full minute to honorifics like buzurgawar and janab-i-aali. You could not talk against extremists. The extremists are holding us to ransom. We have to change all this. There is confusion in my mind, but no concern, about stepping down now.

Q: Why can't you work without uniform as the President of Pakistan?

A: Well, I can. But it is the perception thing. If there is the perception that I have become weak, there can be political destabilization. The symptoms will manifest themselves in the minds of the people. The system will become weak.

The army is involved in an anti-terrorism campaign, which requires courage and guts. And you have several concerns. Can you use the army in the campaign against terror if you are no more the army chief? Then you look over your shoulders and worry that this can happen or that can happen.

So, continuity and sustainability of the policies will be impacted. I believe that if we have the unity of authority, both in the army and the civil bureaucracy, till 2007, it will be very good. So that in 2007 we can have fair and impartial elections. A balanced democracy is established. Then I could step down.

Q: When do you see that happening?

A: At that time. But I cannot put a timeframe on it.

Q: You had a lot of time to set these things straight in the last five years. Why didn't you?

A: Well, we have brought about many changes. Some of them have not matured. But I governed for only three years then Mr (Zafarullah) Jamali came, after the elections. For their performance I am not responsible. But more time is required for the changes we have initiated to mature - for all the reforms and restructuring to work.

Q: But Mr Jamali is gone and yet the people you had reservations about are back, how?

A: Listen, the team moves with the leader. He is the engine. Others are like carriages (dabbaays). Since the leader is the engine, the carriages move where the engine takes them. So, if the engine is defective, they will be bad too.

I know many faces are the same (as in the Jamali government) but there are some new faces, too. There is the younger generation that we have inducted. They are very good in my opinion.

See who are the ministers who are heading the key ministries. I believe that the performance of ministers should be judged according to our standards of accountability and if they do not perform they should be removed by the prime minister. He should be capable to do so.

Q: But why the corrupt were not removed in the past?

A: Listen. There are hindrances, regional issues. There is the MQM. There are sub-regional issues. There are the PPP people. They have to share power with these people.

In Punjab, there are north-south issues. There has to be a balancing act. We do not have an ideal situation. We cannot have meritocracy in this. We do not have an ideal environment. If we take a person who has a bad reputation and have the way to make him work, we should do so.

Q: Do you have an understanding with Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz that those not performing well must be removed?

A: Oh, yes. Why not. But as I said this is not hundred per cent idealistic situation. There are political dimensions in all these. There are constraints. But no total constraints. If he or she is not performing, we can shift him or her. But ultimately we should be able to remove them. We must do it.

Q: What about accountability?

A: Let me tell you, there is accountability. There is so much heresy. I have investigated many ministers and officials. But charges are separate from concrete proof. I have heard things about many top officials and had them investigated. I cannot name them. But we believe that perceptions are important, so Mr Aziz has taken note of perceptions and in shifting people around we must keep that in mind. I have personally told some of them: "We are watching you very carefully."

Q: Do you agree with the perception that the law and order situation in many cities is still bad?

A: Well, this is very rash statement on your part (laughs). We look at everything negatively. We have unearthed many terrorists' strongholds, and terrorists have been taken out.

Those involved in attacks against me, corp commanders, prime minister, all those people have been apprehended and put behind bars. What are you talking about! We have great capability. Those responsible for attacks on churches and schools, we have got everyone. What are you talking about!

Q: What about Karachi, there are daily kidnappings, extortions, murders in the city?

A: Well, that is a law and order situation. I cannot say whether it has increased or decreased. I think it's getting better. But it has not become good. But there are social factors behind dacoit and kidnappings that are responsible for this malaise in Karachi. These things happen in New York as well. There is nothing to worry about. It is not so bad. It is nothing to worry about.